For general range ammo, do you think that Winchester 9 MM NATO 124 GR FMJ is as good as any other major brand of 9mm FMJ range ammo, like Blazer, Magtech, S&B, WWB, Speer, Federal, Rem. etc. ? The reason I'm asking is I'm thinking about standardizing my 9mm range ammo to just one product, and I like "strong" 9mm range ammo, other things being equal. The Win NATO round seems to be a good candidate, but I wanted to ask you guys what you think about this round specifically.

What say you about the Win NATO round for this use ? And have you seen any benefits from standardizing in this way or another ?

In my experience, I find Speer 124 Lawman to be a bit cleaner shooting. My deciding factors would be price and availability.

Both are essentially "full power" and not a cream puff Federal Champion or Remington Green and White Box stuff.

The 124 Lawman basically duplicates standard pressure Gold Dots, which is my preferred 9mm carry ammunition.

A couple months back I was invited to a shooting course that the local police academy and Trijicon was hosting.

Part of the requirement's were that the individual needed 300+ rounds of either 9mm or .40 ammo. So, I got rounds of both.

I grabbed a 250 round count of Winchester White box and I saw boxes of Winchester 9mm NATO 124 grain FMJ. I never saw them before so I said what the heck I grabbed a 100.

Trijicon supplied the pistols (Glock, S&W and Sigs) in both calibers.

I used a P229 for the course and the Winchester 9mm NATO ran great. I could tell a difference between the WWB and the NATO for I felt it had a little more pep to it and I think it ran pretty clean.

For 50 rounds it was a great price for picking it up in the store. I would definitely use it again for target shooting and during a shooting school.

I use it all the time, mostly in things that prefer a little more zip than the cheaper stuff. And for breaking stuff in when they seem to need a little help. Its just about perfect in 9mm carbines. I've never had an issue with it. I see no benefit to standardize on it since its more expensive than other 9mm rounds available to me.

Solid ammo, with caveats.

It straddles the standard/+p line and as a result will beat your guns harder.

It does shoot a little dirtier than other commercial ammo, but not a lot. We're nit talking Randy's Once Fired Remans here.

I've encountered light strikes on this ammo with three weapons, two of which would fire other brands reliably. I stuck this in my proof rotation as a result.

quote:

Originally posted by jjkroll32:
In my experience, I find Speer 124 Lawman to be a bit cleaner shooting. My deciding factors would be price and availability.

Both are essentially "full power" and not a cream puff Federal Champion or Remington Green and White Box stuff.

The 124 Lawman basically duplicates standard pressure Gold Dots, which is my preferred 9mm carry ammunition.

Same opinion, although I use the Fed HST 124gr +p for defensive ammunition.

I quit using 115gr, especially the cheap shit that Walmart sells, Champion and the like. I can buy 124gr practice ammunition (Speer Lawman is my preferred, but any 124 brand ammo is fine for me) for less than Chinamart charges for their 115 cheap crap. As he said, the 124gr practice load simulates the 124gr +p defensive load much much better. If I'm wasting money on reps and box after box I want to put it to good use. Even ordering by the case 124gr fmj's are maybe $10-20 more per case and I don't mind spending it. That's a dollar a box at best, fifty cents higher on the low end.

Win Nato is just fine. I'd say the same if you use 147gr for your defensive load, buy 147ge fmj's, as by the case, not much more.

I have shot a good deal of Winchester NATO 124 grain 9mm ammo and I have been pleased with it. If I could buy Speer Lawman 124 grain for the same price, I would probably go with the Speer, but I have preferred Winchester NATO to most of the garden variety 124 grain 9 mm FMJ including Magtech, Blazer Brass, Remington UMC, Prvi Partizan, Aguila, Federal Sellier & Bellot, Geco, and WWB. I have generally been able to buy the Winchester NATO on-line for only about $1 a 50 rd box over the budget, brass-cased brands.

I feel that the Winchester NATO is only a little hotter than standard pressure 9 mm, but under-powered 9 mm claiming to be standard pressure seems to be becoming more common these days, and at least I have never found the Winchester NATO to be under-powered. I have not had any light primer strikes with it, and it has always reliably cycled all of my 9 mm auto-loaders.

For whatever reason, the only malfunction I ever had with my Beretta 92FS was with a Winchester NATO round. The round chambered but the pistol locked up just shy of being in battery and would not fire. When I got the offending round out, I measured it with a caliper and it was in spec, and passed the "plunk" test into my open barrel chamber with ease, so I have no idea what happened there.

There are two Winchester NATO rounds with significance differences. If you are referring to Q4318, that is good stuff, and fast. If you are referring to RA9124N, it is less potent. I have my chrono test numbers somewhere, but don't have time to look for them right now.

quote:

Originally posted by stiab:
There are two Winchester NATO rounds with significance differences. If you are referring to Q4318, that is good stuff, and fast. If you are referring to RA9124N, it is less potent. I have my chrono test numbers somewhere, but don't have time to look for them right now.

That is interesting news. Do the two varieties come in visually different boxes?

The Winchester NATO 124 grain FMJ that I currently have on hand is the Q4318 variety which comes in a white box, very much like the white boxes that the WWB 115 and 124 grain non-NATO ammo comes in. It has the "WMA" head stamp and the sealed primers.

All of the Winchester NATO that I have bought has come in an identical box with the same head stamps, but I never knew there was more than one variety and never looked at the numbers. The Q4318 variety advertises a muzzle velocity of 1140 fps and muzzle energy of 358 ft-lbs.

My perception is that this ammo is a bit hotter than the garden variety standard pressure 124 grain 9 mm ammunition, but not dramatically so.

The brass is a pain to reload. Crimped primers.

My Q4318 in my Sig P320 compact 3.9" runs 1120fps. Most of the +p in 124/125gr runs 1200+ fps so I think the NATO is just a good solid non-wimp round that is worth the extra money. I think I saw some recently for under $200 per 1000 delivered but I have paid $240 and felt good about it.

quote:

Originally posted by pblanc:
That is interesting news. Do the two varieties come in visually different boxes?

Yes, boxes are different. Q is a black and white box, the R is a white box with red and orange, and says "FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT USE ONLY NOT FOR RETAIL SALE".

Edited to add: I took a quick pic to show you what the R box looks like. B/W Q box is on top.



And I found my chrono stats, out of a 4" barrel the Q averaged 1190 fps, same gun same session the R averaged 1135.

Now that's informative and interesting, and good to know via first hand experience.

I see no reason to standardize on a particular brand of ammo all the time though I avoid the lower powered stuff like Federal Champion, WWB, and UMC. My preference is American Eagle 124 and 147 first and then Speer Lawman but I am fine with either and a lot depends on availability on price.

It sure is nice we are now in a time where we can be picky on what ammo to buy. Not all that long ago it was pretty much whatever is available.

I really like the Winchester Ranger 9MM Nato ammo and stocked up on it years back when it was cheap but that seems hard to find these days.

I have shot several "plain-white-box"-fuls, no problems. The Academy store usually has it. The difference in recoil from that of standard pressure seems noticeably, but not dramatically, different.

quote:

Originally posted by smithnsig:
The brass is a pain to reload. Crimped primers.

The brass is not crimped that badly. It decaps okay, but maybe 1 out of 10 rounds I'll have trouble seating the new primer. A twist with the RCBS deburring tool fixes that problem.

After they've been reloaded once, there's no problem and new primers seat just like any other brand.

The Winchester NATO ammo is good stuff.
A grab a couple boxes every time I go to Cabela's in Fort Worth.

It is just a touch hotter than most other 9mm ammo. It chronographs at about 1225fps average.

Just be careful about confusing the European/NATO loadings with submachine gun loadings.

What about that exactly ?

I like the Win NATO 9mm. Echoing what others have said, it's reliable, only slightly dirtier than the squeaky clean stuff like Federal. Like milsurp NATO M882 itself, it's like a soft +P, so I get a little extra power and range without really worrying about the extra wear-and-tear on the gun. And I like standardizing to NATO for crisis scenarios.

And on the wear-and-tear aspect, that's another reason I like the P229 platform. Originally built up for the more powerful .40S&W and .357SIG cartridges, then downsized for the 9mm, I feel like it basically shrugs off the extra power of even full +P rounds (though maybe not all the time).

The Winchester 9mm NATO with the black lettering is my primary choice for range ammo. Years ago there were some threads discussing how Beretta 92's shot low with 115 grain ammo because the sights were aligned for NATO pressure rounds. I have no idea if there was any truth to the rumors but it had the effect of encouraging me switch to NATO.

Since then that NATO round is my go to. It shoots great and I have never had trouble. I'd recommend it even if it is a dollar or two more over other brands.