Acceptable failure rate for your defensive pistol?

January 27, 2019, 08:31 PM

I'm going to say zero, unless the malfunction is fed ramp,stoppage or stovepipe type issue. The only malfunctions I've had with defensive pistols is a PPKS that broke an internal part and locked up tight, and two or three magazine related malfunctions with 10 round 9mm G19 magazines. I had the Walther repaired and sold it. The issue with the Glock magazines is pretty well known, and I don't keep my G23 as a 9mm for defensive purposes. As a .40 caliber pistol, my G23 has never malfunctioned. When I was carrying a P239 and keeping a P226 as the nightstand gun, neither one experienced a malfunction in several thousand rounds.

January 27, 2019, 08:31 PM

Blackwater

If it is a ammo related function issue and it's practice ammo, then no worries. If it's ammo related but a SD round, I'll likely move on to another ammo if it's persistent.

If it's a gun issue and I can't fix it or determine where the problem is, it's gone.

January 27, 2019, 09:15 PM

HRK

Maybe we should all just carry a 5 shot revolver

January 27, 2019, 09:29 PM

Chris Anchor

NONE Would you bet your life on a maybe? Chris

January 27, 2019, 09:54 PM

YooperSigs

If the failure is traced to bad ammo, I still can trust the gun.
If it fails with the proper, high quality ammo, then I take it out of service until I can find out why and fix it.

January 28, 2019, 04:17 AM

CD228

quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
I don't have a number. Machines fail. As long it is not a "known problem" (IE attaching a light to a gen3 or gen4 Glock) that causes it, as long as I can diagnose the rare times I have a failure, I'm good with whatever that number is.

The more you shoot, the more malfunctions you potentially have.

You raise a great point about diagnosing the issue. If it's a bad magazine, bad batch of ammo, shooter error or worn out spring that can be dealt with quickly, there is no reason to deadline the pistol.

January 28, 2019, 05:30 AM

JDG

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Vaalic:
I don't shoot nearly as much as some here, but my Glocks have been 100% through many many 1000's of rounds. Truly 100%

What this guy says, 100%!!

January 28, 2019, 05:46 AM

MNSIG

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Anchor:
NONE Would you bet your life on a maybe? Chris

You do it every day in a multitude of ways. Getting killed in a gunfight because of a pistol malfunction is probably several hundred deep on the list of ways people die.

January 28, 2019, 07:16 AM

Skins2881

I did not even realize there was such a thing as an acceptable failure rate.

January 28, 2019, 07:30 AM

jljones

quote:
Originally posted by Skins2881:
I did not even realize there was such a thing as an acceptable failure rate.

Do you throw out a pistol after you have a magazine related FTF? A Winchester White Box case rim that gets ripped off during extraction and stays in the chamber? In every class I teach, I watch at least 1 Glock have malfunctions. Not a dig on Glock, it is just what I have noticed in the last 10 or so classes. In the last class it was being operated by a teenage boy, Gen5 G34. I do not tell people that Glocks are junk because of this. Too many factors come into play as to the "why".

If you are not having the occasional malfunction- 1) You don't shoot much. 2) You don't actually train for conditions that are less than optimal. You put a less than optimal grip on a Glock, and they tie up quite frequently. The answer of it being a "training issue" is cute until you can't hold onto the gun because of injury.

All guns will malfunction. SIGs, M&Ps, Glocks, H&Ks, etc.

There is such a thing as an acceptable failure rate. I had a malfunction yesterday at the range with a low round count P320RX. It was a failure to extract. Looked like a weak case rim from reman ammo. I have no plans on benching the gun because it is "unreliable".

January 28, 2019, 07:45 AM

esdunbar

I'm not the best at diagnosing what caused a failure. I simply am not well enough versed in these things to really know what the culprit was. Sometimes it's easy to see it was the ammo. I've had a couple mags in life that were just garbage. It was easy to tell it wasn't the gun.

Other than those super obvious ones, I'm never really quite sure tbh. Having said that, I don't shoot the volume an instructor would, or even as much as the guy who reloads and has a private range on his property, but I do shoot a decent amount.

I rarely have failures. I easily go several thousand rounds before seeing an issue on my pistols. I'd say I see more failures on my rifles (suppressed vs unsuppressed gas issues usually) than I do on my pistols.

If I had 1 failure every thousand rounds, that would concern me. I've only had a couple guns that couldn't do better than that and I've gotten rid of all of them.

So what's my number? I dunno, I'd expect 2-3k rounds easily without an issue. I am not rolling around in the dirt, or dumping mud in my guns. It's range life for them, so it's a pretty low bar. If it's ammo related or mag related, I don't count that as the gun's failure.

January 28, 2019, 08:01 AM

RHINOWSO

quote:
If you are not having the occasional malfunction- 1) You don't shoot much. 2) You don't actually train for conditions that are less than optimal. You put a less than optimal grip on a Glock, and they tie up quite frequently. The answer of it being a "training issue" is cute until you can't hold onto the gun because of injury.

Beat me to the punch.

January 28, 2019, 08:27 AM

myrottiety

Firearm related I really want zero. But if I can diagnose it to a a ammo related problem or human error. I'm good there.

January 28, 2019, 09:01 AM

Skins2881

quote:
Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
quote:
If you are not having the occasional malfunction- 1) You don't shoot much. 2) You don't actually train for conditions that are less than optimal. You put a less than optimal grip on a Glock, and they tie up quite frequently. The answer of it being a "training issue" is cute until you can't hold onto the gun because of injury.

Beat me to the punch.

I guess I'm extremely lucky then. Only had one SIG that gave me a problem, three trips to Exter, fixed that problem and it's had thousands of flawless rounds. I have a 226 and that gun that have over 5,000 rounds with no failres. I Also have a SP2022 that you could cut off a couple of my fingers and still could count failure on one hand. That 2022 my wife shoots and I can attribute those to mag not being seated and limp wristing.

A bad primer or misshapen case is not a failure of the gun, but I've shot internet reloads, UMC, and WWB with out problems. I have many SIGs with under 1k rounds with no failres as well.

We shoot off hand and one handed a decent amount (could use more practice for sure). We shoot laying on the ground. We shoot in 100+ and 20° weather. Can't practice a running gun battle or shooting with an injured hand, but I wouldn't ascribe a failure due to injury as being the guns fault.

January 28, 2019, 09:41 AM

joatmonv

I've been lucky also. The 19X stands at ~1500 rounds and has not had one malfunction. A few weak ejections but that's it.
2 pistols come to mind though. First was a Bersa BP9CC. Dead trigger after 500 or so rounds. Sent it back, got a new one sent to me and promptly sold it. Didn't trust it even if it was new.
Second was a Sig Ultra Compact in 9mm. Didn't like 115grn at all. Constantly jammed. Asked for advice on this forum. Advice given was to run higher grain 9mm rounds through it. So I did. 124grn and up for 200 rounds. Tried 115grn after and never had another issue. Seems it was a little over sprung.
This thread kinda ties into one from a while ago that asked how many rounds before you trust your pistol to be carried.
I try to put everything I can through my pistol. Blazer Brass, Blazer aluminum, HST, Barnes XTP, Critical Duty and so on.
Again, I've been very lucky and not had problems with most handguns.

January 28, 2019, 10:52 AM

sns3guppy

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Vaalic:

I do not have pics. This happened about 15 years ago. I was the second owner, I had just bought it and was at the range. I did not notice anything off or wrong with the pistol before shooting it. The first round, the barrel literally flew off the gun, and went down the range. Fortunately I only had one round in it, because the trigger and cylinder were all jacked up. I sent the pieces back to Ruger, with a note saying I was not the original owner, what ammo I was using, etc. I looked the gun over pretty well before and after buying it, and nothing jumped out at me as being wrong. I dry fired it a couple of times, no issues.

I figured maybe Ruger could fix it or something, never expected the response I got, which was basically a new gun. I think the frame was the same but they put in a new barrel and cylinder and all new parts. There was no note or explanation or hypothesis of what happened. Turnaround time was pretty fast also. I shot it a bunch after that with no issues, some .38 and some .357 mags. I was honestly amazed at the response, I was not asking for them to eat it and never expected them to fix it for free.

It was quite lucky, I wasn't hurt at all. Everything went forward instead of back at me. My buddy was freaking out, he was in the lane next to me, and saw the barrel go down range.

Sounds like a pretty good standard of customer service, then. Something must have really happened to that pistol in a previous life to introduce such a stress that it failed like that; it had to be a thread failure. Glad it worked out well for you, anyway.

January 28, 2019, 12:45 PM

Ryanp225

I want zero Unexplainable failures.
By this I mean if I have a malfunction I want to be able to identify and fix it. I don't expect anything to be perfect and run forever but a gun with mysterious and intermittent failures have no place in my holster.

January 28, 2019, 12:57 PM

armored

I expect zero.
A gun is not that complicated to make and work.
If a car can be made that sits out in 4 seasons suffering extreme temp. swings,water, ice,wind,and endless jolts and bumps year after year, used daily, and has a multitude of extremely complicated systems, electrical and mechanical, and expected to not break down at all for years, a firearm that does not break should not be a strain to make.