Of course, we all prefer that our defensive guns to never fail. But, that's impossible/unrealistic, since we cannot predict the future with certainty. So, we shoot and shoot and test and test until whatever number of rounds have been through the gun, before saying, "it's good for carry now", or, "nope, too many failures, not good enough".

So, what's your acceptable failure rate?

1% (1 out of 100)?
0.5% (1 out of 200)?
0.2% (1 out of 500)?
0.1% (1 out of 1000)?
0.01% (1 out of 10000)?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 12131,

I don't have a number. Machines fail. As long it is not a "known problem" (IE attaching a light to a gen3 or gen4 Glock) that causes it, as long as I can diagnose the rare times I have a failure, I'm good with whatever that number is.

The more you shoot, the more malfunctions you potentially have.

Depends on what the failure is.

An occasional failure to lock back is close to a non-issue IMO. Often user induced and doesn't affect function.

An occasional failure to extract or failure to fire is usually ammo related. That could happen with a perfectly reliable pistol if you happened upon a dead primer. Best to know how to deal with it.

A failure to feed that ties up the gun is a more serious problem. I wouldn't want to accept very many of those.

Failure of the trigger/striker to reset would indicate something more serious mechanically, so that one would go back to the factory if it did it more than once.

I don't have an exact number but 1% or less is the goal. More important is how recently a failure may have happened and why, do I have confidence it will work when needed.
I start out with guns and ammo that are considered to be field proven then use them to become proficient with shooting them and to be sure I don't have one that's a lemon.

It really depends. I carried a PPQ for a while that I had 4 failures within 200ish rounds. But, the first failure was me using reloads that were a trusted source, up until I got a batch during the ammo crunch where he apparently started cutting corners to keep up with demand. That was an hourglass shaped round that jammed up the slide on feeding. Needed a punch and mallet to break it free. Then a bad case of Fiocchi gave me 2 stovepipes and 1 near squib.

Every failure was found to be ammo related, so I was fine with them. Now if it had repeated failure to feed JHPs or light primer strikes or whatever, then yeah I wouldn't trust it to carry.

I understand some guns are tight right out of the box and may not be 100% for a few rounds, but before I carry, it's gotta go 200 rounds with zero malfunctions. I expect any issues initially to be done within the first 50 rounds.

It should be .01% for me, unless it’s a verifiable cause. Yes they are machines and can fail and I should be able to clear the jam, if it occurred but it’s my duty to do everything possible to make sure it doesn’t happen. I keep my guns clean and lubed, magazines clean and dry, always use quality ammo so I expect them to work, if they don’t I wanna know why. For example, if I get a failure to fire, extract the cartridge and it’s got a good primer strike, I toss the cartridge and don’t give it a second thought. Failure such as feeding, double feeds or extraction issues must be diagnosed, fixed and confirmed.

I don't shoot nearly as much as some here, but my Glocks have been 100% through many many 1000's of rounds. Truly 100%

Some of my other pistols have had issues, but if I know its because I haven't cleaned it or someone is limp wristing or something, that isn't the fault of the pistol.

I had a Ruger SP101 that blew apart, literally, but I don't know what happened to that. I sent it back to Ruger with all the pieces and they basically sent me a new gun, but didn't tell me what happened. I had some trouble trusting that one again, but like I said they sent me a new one so I gained the trust back.

What kind of failure? A lot of them are caused by the shooter. If it's a chronic problem affecting reliability of the pistol and can't be corrected by the shooter, then the rate doesn't really matter. It's a no-go.

If it's a failure that doesn't really impact reliability such as an occasional failure to lock back (which is often shooter related), who cares?

If the firearm is locked up with double feeds and failures to extract or has fatal malfunctions that take the pistol out of service and can't be quickly cleared, then again it doesn't matter how many malfunctions. The number isn't the problem, but the condition is.

Mechanical things break. Variations in ammunition can create malfunctions. Variations in shooter grip can create them. They might be traced to a specific magazine. Most problems can be fixed. If they can't be fixed, then it's time for a different pistol, and if it can be fixed, it shouldn't be carried until it is fixed.

quote:

I had a Ruger SP101 that blew apart, literally, but I don't know what happened to that. I sent it back to Ruger with all the pieces and they basically sent me a new gun, but didn't tell me what happened. I had some trouble trusting that one again, but like I said they sent me a new one so I gained the trust back.

Got pictures?

It takes a lot to blow up a Ruger revolver.

It's interesting that they simply replaced it. By comparison, I had a brand new shield, put less than 200 rounds through it, and the frame cracked. S&W refused to honor their warranty, but offered to "replace it" for more than the cost of a retail one. Kudo's to Ruger for doing it right.

My very highly regarded 1911 finally had a string of failures to extract properly...I thought my extractor needed replaced/adjusted, but it was ultimately gummed up very badly.

I was so incredulously angry, until it occurred to me I had not cleaned it in ~800 rounds of range/ball ammo (e.g., Blazer brass).

Moral of my story, my favorite 1911 had not failed me...I failed me. User error. Answer to the original question = 0.1% - my glocks, multiple M&P, VP9, and even Rugers tend to never ever fail (I've limp-wristed several times). Very fortunate I am. I clean more often now.

I have a couple of glocks that have never failedwith thousands of rounds down range. 1% would be too much for me. I don’t know a number. The only failure I have ever had was an LCP that sheared the takedown pin.

I don't have a number, but I do have P229 with several thousand rounds through it and 0 fails of any kind. I like that number!
Rod

zero zero zero

At the range, I’ve never experienced a failure with either my Gen5 19 or my P30S. I’ve owned a couple other HK (P30, P2000SK) and never experienced a single failure with those either.

Previous guns (couple of low cost 1911s, gen3 G32, XD, M&P ver 1 9mm) that have failed have been sold with full disclosure. I’ve also had some issues with classic SIGs (mostly P220s), but so few (1 in 500) as to not concern me.

I really despise going to the range only to spend that time to diagnose a problem. I’d rather spend that time drilling, and since almost every range around here doesn’t allow that, I shoot when I can outdoors at a relative’s range.

I figure failure drills are just as important as any other part of training, no?

If not stated directly, this has been alluded to: If it’s truly the fault of the gun, for example, failures to chamber with different ammunition, magazine feeding problems, failures to fire, or a broken part, then the problem has to be fixable and fixed otherwise it’s unacceptable and I have zero percent tolerance for such issues. I also consider “limp wrist” or weak grip-induced failures with any sort of reasonable action and technique by the shooter to be the fault of the gun and likewise unacceptable.

Faulty ammunition that causes a stoppage of some sort is evaluated on the basis of what it’s used for. Defensive ammunition doesn’t get fired much, but if something like a failure to chamber due to faulty bullet or case or a failure to fire occurred twice in two or three boxes, I would reject that lot, if not the entire brand. For training ammo, a few tenths of a percent failure is okay with me. One percent wouldn’t be.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
zero zero zero

S&W Sigma?

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
..as long as I can diagnose the rare times I have a failure, I'm good with whatever that number is.

The more you shoot, the more malfunctions you potentially have.

Agreed. I had a rash of my G19s having multiple failures to feed.

At first I thought it was ammo (Steel Cased), but then I figured out it was the combination of ammo and Magpul Glock mags making the rounds take waaaay to long to feed into position.

Switched to brass case in the Magpul mags or use the steel case in the Glock OEMs -> Good to go.

I understand that nothing mechanical can be zero forever. But I'm not carrying it till its been zero for a pretty good run. Normally I use the standard of 500 rounds of the real ammo and no failures. Awhile back Jljones and I had a discussion about the statistics of failure rates, and for the sample sizes we have I know I'm not statistically doing much. But I feel better...

quote:

Got pictures?It takes a lot to blow up a Ruger revolver.

I do not have pics. This happened about 15 years ago. I was the second owner, I had just bought it and was at the range. I did not notice anything off or wrong with the pistol before shooting it. The first round, the barrel literally flew off the gun, and went down the range. Fortunately I only had one round in it, because the trigger and cylinder were all jacked up. I sent the pieces back to Ruger, with a note saying I was not the original owner, what ammo I was using, etc. I looked the gun over pretty well before and after buying it, and nothing jumped out at me as being wrong. I dry fired it a couple of times, no issues.

I figured maybe Ruger could fix it or something, never expected the response I got, which was basically a new gun. I think the frame was the same but they put in a new barrel and cylinder and all new parts. There was no note or explanation or hypothesis of what happened. Turnaround time was pretty fast also. I shot it a bunch after that with no issues, some .38 and some .357 mags. I was honestly amazed at the response, I was not asking for them to eat it and never expected them to fix it for free.

It was quite lucky, I wasn't hurt at all. Everything went forward instead of back at me. My buddy was freaking out, he was in the lane next to me, and saw the barrel go down range.

<1 per gunfight.