quote:

Originally posted by Dawes:
As far as reliability and durability, there aren't many pistols as bombproof as a USP.

Interesting.

Not Glocks, Smith M&Ps, Beretta 92s, 96s, 84s, SIG 226s, 228s, 229s, third Gen Smiths, Ruger P85s, P89s, etc, etc? Seems like a lot of guns out there with the same reliability and durability track record.

Lots of great pistols out there. If you believe HK's promos, the USP seems pretty well built:

https://www.facebook.com/heckl...sts/6333761803331719

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Dawes:
As far as reliability and durability, there aren't many pistols as bombproof as a USP.

Interesting.

Not Glocks, Smith M&Ps, Beretta 92s, 96s, 84s, SIG 226s, 228s, 229s, third Gen Smiths, Ruger P85s, P89s, etc, etc? Seems like a lot of guns out there with the same reliability and durability track record.

The P8/USP is no better or worse than other service pistols and it also had problems. Especially with the German DM11 cartridge, which led to slide cracks and made it necessary to rework the pistol to the P8A1 model. Now the cost/benefit ratio will probably be too high, so a replacement is being considered for the next few years.

If the Bundeswehr is looking for an economical solution, then it is not just about purchasing but also about maintenance and repair as well as training. Pistols with stamped small parts or made of plastic and simplified triggers without a distinctive trigger stage are much more advantageous in training and cheaper to maintain but with the same effectiveness.

The Bundeswehr has now received an enormous procurement budget and it would be wrong to forego the opportunity to replace an outdated model now.

I carry the PDP for uniform and the PDP-f as my plain clothes gun. Both are rock solid.

UPDATE to this old thread...

They've selected the CZ-P10F it appears.

https://www.calibredefence.co....eswehrs-new-handgun/

quote:

... pistol which has been “introduced in a quantity of over 5000 pistols in the military sector of a NATO state in the last five years or be about to be introduced (award already awarded).”

So it's not 100% based on price, they're just outsourcing/leveraging the qualification testing of other organizations they trust.

quote:

Originally posted by rat2306:
UPDATE to this old thread...

They've selected the CZ-P10F it appears.

https://www.calibredefence.co....eswehrs-new-handgun/

Article only says CZ but does not mention any specific model.

That's correct, Q. It's not specific, but several photos show the P-10F, the Glock 17, and another arm. Hence, I used the word "appears". I did find this on CZ's site:

https://www.czub.cz/en/firearm...cts-family/p-10-nato

Of course, the official announcement has yet to be made but sources reported to an outlet (Hartpunkt) that CZ will be getting the offer.

quote:

Originally posted by Dawes:
IIRC, Glock was upset because SIG won the award without going through the normal endurance and environmental testing.

Really??

quote:

DOT&E report and the positive results of recent Lot Acceptance Testing with a press release. During a round of acceptance testing, 12,000 rounds were put through three M18s without a single stoppage. SIG Sauer confirmed that in addition to the endurance test the M18 also “passed a parts interchange test, met all of the stringent accuracy and dispersion requirements, was tested for firing pin indent and trigger pull measurements to ensure consistency, and conformed to all workmanship standards.”

quote:

Originally posted by kaschi:
I can't imagine Germany choosing a pistol that is not made in Germany. It would really surprise me if they selected a foreign made one.

Seriously doubt they will award the contract to a foreign vendor.

I agree with Dawes about the USP. It’s in a category of its own with respect to toughness and long-term durability. I’m not saying that nothing comes close, but there’s a difference.

quote:

Originally posted by rscalzo:

quote:

Originally posted by kaschi:
I can't imagine Germany choosing a pistol that is not made in Germany. It would really surprise me if they selected a foreign made one.

Seriously doubt they will award the contract to a foreign vendor.

It`s nothing new, many Germany military contracts in recent years have been open and went to companies from Europe mostly.

Besides, within Germany there is pretty much the choice only between HK and Walther (at least when talking about pistols)

The trials are already underway. The remaining candidates are from AREX, GLOCK, and CZ.
Walther and HK are out.

https://www.all4shooters.com/d...lich-der-bundeswehr/

In that original group if I was Emperor then I would narrow it down to Walther or Glock. Since Walther is already out then it seems Glock would be my default choice. Tough to out-Glock Glock. Would love to read an English version of why Walther failed the cut. HK is kind of easier, their striker guns have never lit my fuse. HK for hammers is my thing. (My CZ P10C has been a fine gun)

^^^^^^^^
To one up you, if I were in charge of purchasing for any military, especially the US military, I would pick a Glock 17 with no manual safety.

Adding a manual safety to a gun that thrives without it is like adding a second floor to an outhouse. The US military is obsessed with manual safeties as a substitute for training.

Seriously ^^^^^ It’s like hey we have this handgun that has been vetted by like literally everybody for like 40 years oh and it’s cheap and reliable and super durable with an unending supply of parts it even mounts modern optics, lights and lasers. ………….

But does it take Glock mags?

Look I’m not a “Glock guy” so to speak. I am a gun guy. My “go to guns” are not Glocks but if you put me in charge of damn near any large military or law enforcement organization with the task of outfitting it with a side arm, I’d have a Glock 17 in everybody’s holsters by 10:30 am and take the rest of the day off. Ok maybe I go Glock 47/45/19 for parts commonality but you get the point. It’s literally the easy button for weapons procurement for Christ sakes. I’d spend more time deciding if I liked basic black or a nice OD or FDE frame.

I do like two story outhouses. lol. I can’t even imagine why they don’t do it slingers way. Set aside a month in the Bahamas for the testing, pick the Glock during breakfast of day one , and then enjoy your govt subsidized vaca.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
^^^^^^^^
To one up you, if I were in charge of purchasing for any military, especially the US military, I would pick a Glock 17 with no manual safety.

Adding a manual safety to a gun that thrives without it is like adding a second floor to an outhouse. The US military is obsessed with manual safeties as a substitute for training.

LoL I'm not even a Glock guy (currently own zero and multiple M17/M18s) and for the life of me I don't know why they didn't simply go buy a half a million G19s. SOCOM and ARSOF have been buying them for years and have been very pleased with them.

i’d enjoy seeing Smith and Wesson submitting the M&P at a fixed cost. That would be a hoot, the German army using American pistols! but alas, in the end, I think it’ll be the Glock 17