I have to laugh. I've been around long enough to observe that every generation bemoans the current production guns and idolizes the previous generation of guns, ad infinitum.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Pizza Bob:
I have to laugh. I've been around long enough to observe that every generation bemoans the current production guns and idolizes the previous generation of guns, ad infinitum.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

I totally agree, things weren't ever all butterflies and rainbows "back in the day". Some things were better, some were worse. Any gun made in 85, 65, 35 that had problems has either been fixed or has likely gone away.

The rate of problem guns made has probably not changed and if it has it's gone down over time.

I have no problem with current SW revolvers other than I find the lock aesthetically unpleasing. I ran a 642 hard as a backup gun for nearly a decade. That poor little j frame ate at least 15 thousand rounds of +p over its service life. It was a little loose when I finally retired it, but it was still functional.

I bought one of the new generation of Model 66 Combat Magnums and it is a fine revolver. The trigger is a bit heavier than I'd prefer, but it is perfectly serviceable. I bought it mainly as something that would be 50 state legal and able to stand up to the abuse of motorcycle trips in all weather. It's not only held up well to that, but I find myself carrying it more and more just because I like it.

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
IMHO, it started with Bangor Punta.

Maybe, but they made a heck of a lot of great revolvers in those 20 years.

For me, the P&Rs are works of art, the 1980-mid 90s are solid revolvers, but anything MIM and on is not on my wish list.

it seems we have some really knowledgeable S&W people in this thread. So in advance don't abuse me on this question its from a neophyte. I am not a revolver guy not in the least. I bought the S&W performance center 9mm to compete in the revolver division of steel plates at my local club so I could possibly win the trifecta of revolver, optics and irons (footnote two of three). It had a lock. I removed it in like 15 minutes (again never seen the inside of a revolver before) and installed a readily available plug. Yup you might see the plug it doesn't match perfectly if you look really closely, but its pretty close. So to my question, why do people have heartburn about the lock? Its easily removed. Does it affect something else? This is just a theoretical question.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
So to my question, why do people have heartburn about the lock? Its easily removed.

I despise superfluous safety devices in general and on firearms in particular. And while I am certain others will vehemently disagree with me, I believe superfluous safeties lead to complacency. I worked 30+ years in the strip metals industry and am very familiar with the evolution of cut resistant clothing. As the effectiveness of the clothing improved, so did the risks employees were taking while performing their job duties. It has been said many times on this forum the best safety is between your ears. The modern double action revolver was considered the epitome of safety since 1899. To add an additional layer of safety to satisfy the corporate attorneys and insurance companies insults my intelligence. Yes, I know this is the litigious world in which we live. It still gives me heartburn. Out of curiosity, why did you elect to remove the internal safety from your revolver? Thanks!

You have to realize that the company that made revolver locks bought Smith and Wesson. Of course they were going to add it to everything.

In addition to lowering reliability, the lock required a redesign of the frame and ruined the classic frame lines around the hammer of s&w revolvers. Regards 18DAI

quote:

Originally posted by WaterburyBob:
You have to realize that the company that made revolver locks bought Smith and Wesson. Of course they were going to add it to everything.

Much like the Post Office is about the only place you regularly receive US $1 coins as change.

I have a 629-6 4 inch, which has the lock. It has as good a trigger as my 19-6 (no lock) and almost as good a trigger as my 1930 Colt Officer's Model target pistol. The finish is high polish stainless, and the fit is excellent.

I'm not sure exactly which year mine was made, but it is a fine handgun, superbly accurate, and very well made in fit and finish.

I'm not happy with the lock, but that made it pretty affordable, all things considered, and I am very happy with the performance of the gun.

It's too bad if quality in more recent production has fallen off.

To gain perspective on S&W, you need only to handle a revolver made in the mid 1950s and one made now. Or during the Bangor Punta era. The addition of the lock and its associated politics changed my impression of S&W as a company.
I agree there were plenty of well made guns during the Bangor Punta era. But there was a diminishing level of quality and fit that was becoming more evident. And it is not just with S&W. Look at the demise of Winchester. Colt dropping its revolvers are another example. The old line gun companies and their method of manufacture have become "modern" and the classic fit and finish are now gone. Economics drive these changes. The S&W of the 1950s cant be cost effective for sales in 2019. So, you have a sleeved barrel, MIM parts, and a pointless lock.
And I am going to buy an S&W Model 19 Carry Comp when I can come up with some cash. I realize its not 1950 and I hope for the best.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
So to my question, why do people have heartburn about the lock? Its easily removed. Does it affect something else? This is just a theoretical question.

For some it's just because "that's not the way they used to be". If they'd have made the locks first then stopped, some would be paying premiums for the lock models!

I'm like you. If someone is worried about the lock, it's easily removed.

Out of curiosity, does the performance Center revolvers have MIM parts? I am not knowledgeable enough to know. I have a Comp V8 .357 that I have had zero problems with and is so well balanced I bought it when I had a broken arm so I could shoot offhand.

I even got burned on their stock.

quote:

why did you elect to remove the internal safety from your revolver?

I was told (by others, I'm not a revolver guy) that it reduced reliability. and of course in matches that's the key. you have to finish to finish first. But it literally took me a couple of minutes to get it out of there and I've never been in a revolver before. SO if you have it and dont' like it, just ditch it. YMMV

Some of the new revolvers coming out are actually quite nice. I bought a model 69 that has less perceived recoil for me than the N frames. The accuracy is outstanding and it is a pleasure to carry. I cannot speak to the durability, having less than 1k rounds through it.

My biggest complaint about current S&W revolvers is that they come out with nothing new and innovative with a blued finish! I detest stainless and would love a smith 9mm revolver - don’t care about mom or lock but hate stainless which after decades of getting guns soaking wet falling in swamps and lakes and out in snowstorms and floods firmly believe is a solution to a nonexistent problem

18DAI, Well I learned something here. I didn't know that the PC is now just another assembly line in the factory. That certainly confirms my impression of current "PC" products;( I still have a 686 that Vito worked on for me about 10 years ago,IIRC. I asked him to fit a new cylinder. When it came back, timing was rock solid, no detectable end shake, B/C gap .003", etc. I couldn't have been more pleased with his work.

After I'd sent the gun back, I was real surprised one day at work when I got a call from Vito. He called to discuss the work. I'd heard or read somewhere that he's since retired. I mean, when is the last time the guy actually doing the work at the manufacturer called the customer to make sure we were both on the same page. Never happened to me before...

Rock185 Vito is a fine gentleman. I spoke to him about a PC 45CQB that I wanted Novak night sights and a spurless hammer put on, among other work. Thats when he told me if I wanted him to do the work, I had better send it in NOW.

I did and he did a spendid job on it. I miss the REAL Performance Center. The junk they put that famous seal on these days is pathetic. Regards 18DAI

I had a non-pinned M13 from the mid 80's that was fine. It has been a shooter, so you would probably pass over it at a gun show. I had a tiny bit of work and a Wolf mainspring put in early on. It was accurate and no problems at all in a few thousand.

Like others have said, the finish seemed to decline around the time of the lock business, but I have heard only spotty reports of function issues.

The pinned and recessed days were definitely better finishes, and of course the ones from the sixties and back were better still. I did hear spotty reports of the odd gun during the seventies that wasn't perfect. Some that wouldn't sight in within the limits of the adjustment on the usually great sights.