My carry guns have RMRs because everyone says so.

My two gaming guns have SROs because they are better for shooting. Both at 15-16000 rounds, and I have dropped each of them once already. One on a hard floor from a chest waist shelf, another on the ground out of the waist high holster. The latter landed optic first, smacked down by 43 oz of my CZ.
Neither of them was told that they were inferior durability optics and, armed with this un-knowledge, they shrugged and carried on.

To me the biggest issue is concealment and backup sight compatibility. If I were able to work around those, I'd go with SRO. And if I was really worried, I would get this thing. After all, that's how Leupold protects their DPPs.

https://youtu.be/Z99tEe8HI0g

Thanks for all the comments.

Having read all the comments and watched the videos supplied, I will be going with the RMR.

I've already installed Trijicon Bright and Tough Suppressor sights and I am not sure they are high enough to co witness with the SRO they way I would like them to. I am also concerned about carry. The SRO is significantly taller and sits further forward and I have a couple of OWB holsters in mind, including a Comp Tac Warrior that I already have that I don't think would be compatible with the SRO without some modification. It looks like it will fit and RMR without any modification. It's unlikely I'll carry this pistol concealed except to the extent of having a shirt or jacket over it.

As far as durability, that's less of a concern. I watched the evaluation video. That SRO survived far, far, far more abuse than I would put on it. And apart from that video, I haven't read any reviews that spoke to broken glass from dropping. Every reference to broken glass seems to lead back to that video. No telling how many times is was slammed against concrete to perform a one handed rack before it underwent a drop test.

No, size and sight/holster compatibility is what ruled it out for me.

I'm a huge fan of the pistol MRDS.

You made a great choice.

I do not have a SRO, but my RMR06 works very well on my G19. As long as I shoot "Threat Focused", the dot just appears. I like the height of the RMR.

A LGS near me had several RMRs with different dot sizes. I decided to go with the more traditional Dual Illuminated RMR. I selected the 9 MOA dot in green. The dot is about the same size as the white ring around the tritium vial in the front sight. I can see it clearly. It looks like a perfectly round dot to my aging eyes. It's bright - way, way brighter in total darkness than the dots in the iron sights. I think I actually love it.

Here it is sitting on my Glock. I had to order a mounting kit with the sealing plate and short screws. So the RMR is not actually mounted in the pictures.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the mounting plates from C&H Precision Weapons. I'm not affiliated with them, but:

I was not all that impressed with the mounting plates supplied with the Glock MOS system, so I got one of their units and feel like it is a superior product. It's a milled plate vs MIM, which I don't necessarily have a problem with, maybe just a trust thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:
A LGS near me had several RMRs with different dot sizes. I decided to go with the more traditional Dual Illuminated RMR. I selected the 9 MOA dot in green. The dot is about the same size as the white ring around the tritium vial in the front sight. I can see it clearly. It looks like a perfectly round dot to my aging eyes. It's bright - way, way brighter in total darkness than the dots in the iron sights. I think I actually love it.

Here it is sitting on my Glock. I had to order a mounting kit with the sealing plate and short screws. So the RMR is not actually mounted in the pictures.

Looks real good! Now I want some Waffle Fries with Chic-Fil-A Sauce.

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:

I decided to go with the more traditional Dual Illuminated RMR.

So the RMR is not actually mounted in the pictures.

If you haven't mounted or used the optic (i.e. it can be returned or exchanged), maybe you can research how dual illuminated RMRs perform and decide if you still want it.
Dual illums have higher tendency to wash out under certain conditions. Most folks prefer auto adjustable as they tend to wash out less.
I shoot in all kinds of lighting conditions and at all kind of targets contrast-wise, and I've had even adjustable RMRs wash out under certain conditions.

quote:

Originally posted by YVK:
If you haven't mounted or used the optic (i.e. it can be returned or exchanged), maybe you can research how dual illuminated RMRs perform and decide if you still want it.
Dual illums have higher tendency to wash out under certain conditions. Most folks prefer auto adjustable as they tend to wash out less.
I shoot in all kinds of lighting conditions and at all kind of targets contrast-wise, and I've had even adjustable RMRs wash out under certain conditions.

Nope, I'm good with it. I've got a lot of time behind Meprolight M21s and am very familiar with washout. I've also used Burris Fast Fire IIs quite a bit and am used to the self adjusting dot brightness. It doesn't bother me because washout occurs looking at a bright background from a darker area and under those circumstances the iron sights stand out very clearly. If I wasn't using back up iron sights, I may have gone with a red dot. But in this case, I like the dual illuminated better. The 9 moa dot stands out very boldly.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig Fever:

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:
A LGS near me had several RMRs with different dot sizes. I decided to go with the more traditional Dual Illuminated RMR. I selected the 9 MOA dot in green. The dot is about the same size as the white ring around the tritium vial in the front sight. I can see it clearly. It looks like a perfectly round dot to my aging eyes. It's bright - way, way brighter in total darkness than the dots in the iron sights. I think I actually love it.

Here it is sitting on my Glock. I had to order a mounting kit with the sealing plate and short screws. So the RMR is not actually mounted in the pictures.

Looks real good! Now I want some Waffle Fries with Chic-Fil-A Sauce.

That’s a 9 moa dot? I have a 6.5 moa dot RMR and my dot seems much bigger than yours.

The cell phone photo throws off the perspective. Looking at it through eyes, and not a cell phone camera, it looks almost exactly as big as the white dot on the front sight.

Looks like the dual illuminated RMR with the green 9 moa dot is the RMR chosen by the USMC to go on top of their machine-gun mounted ACOGs for close range engagements. I didn't know that before I bought it, but its interesting, nonetheless. I really appealed to the non-electronic nature of the dual illuminated RMR and the 15 year warranty on the tritium vials.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Micropterus,

I wouldn’t use one for “duty”, may or may not for “carry,” but I’d definitely use one for a HD gun. They live a pampered life in a climate controlled environment waiting to maybe be called upon to fire a few rounds in anger some day inside the house.

I have both and use RMRs on my G19.4MOS, G19.5MOS, and M&P CORE 9mm. They’ve all been dropped and no worse for it. I will be using my SRO on my competition AR once I get Jagerwerks’ new SRO shroud. I don’t trust the SRO to survive a bad drop. The shroud should help mitigate drop risks. However the big difference for me is that the SRO’s auto feature sucks. The same feature on the RMRs works great. The SRO is always too dim so I set the brightness manually and lock it.

Now that I am done with this, I got some more pics and some observations.






Now some observations.

This RMR has the green dot. The front of the glass has the green coating to ensure the green light doesn't pass through and you have a nice reflection on the backside of the glass. Works well, obviously. But what it also does is entirely block the green light from the front tritium sight from coming through. So if the RMR dot wasn't there for some reason, you aren't going to see the green light in the front sight. You may see the front sight and the white dot, but not the green light in the middle of that white dot. The good part is, being tritium and fiber optic combined, the green dot in the RMR isn't going anywhere unless muck gets on the glass, but then you won't see the front sight anyways.

Second, for me, this is a much slower aiming solution than open sights. It takes me a second or two to find that dot in the window. With practice, I'll speed up, but for now, and for speed, I much prefer my XS DXT2 express sights. Those sights have a big front dot and a shallow V rear sight. And in the dark, the front tritium vial is very bright compounded by the glowing dot surrounding it. They are the brightest, fastest, night sights I've used to date.

I can't imagine this RMR set up is a very useful self defense set up under most circumstances where one would use it for self defense. I can't imagine taking the time to line up the dot on a target in a frantic self defense situation. For competition, okay. For police doing and entry and who already have their guns drawn and up, perhaps. Or if you are behind good cover trading shots with someone across the street, maybe. But for me, I want to know immediately where my front end is and where its pointing and my big open sights do a better job. This RMR, and the others RMRs I've seen, and other small reflex RDSs in general, have a very small windows and the slightest movement of the muzzle will take the dot out of view altogether.

I'm glad I did it and will keep it. Surely, it has some uses. And it looks cool. But next time my brother in law calls me and tells me his car is broken down at his machine shop in downtown Petersburg and needs a ride at 11 PM, I won't be going to get him with this in my car or on my hip. It will be my very trustworthy G19 with that big, fat front sight that I can see the second I can see my gun and can line up in a split second.

Blunt but honest: I'm not sure how you can make a judgement on red dots as being "not very useful for self defense" after only 3 days and minimal practice. But I can understand why your preference would be iron sights right off the bat... They're what you're used to, and there's a learning curve with red dots, for sure. (I still use irons on my carry and duty guns, since I'm not 100% on red dots yet either, though I'm working on it.)

It sounds like you may need to work on cleaning up your draw and/or grip. Most folks who struggle with finding the dot do so because they have a sloppy draw or poor grip, and they're used to fine tuning as they come up (or after they come up).

Also, make sure you're focusing on the target, not the dot (or trying to find the dot to focus on it). You're used to focusing on the front sight, but with a red dot your target should be your focus throughout. An easy way to practice this when starting out is to focus on the target, then draw and bring the optic window up to "frame" the target (like a picture frame) while still focusing on the target. The dot will be there as well.

If you'll work on having a solid and repeatable grip and draw, and focusing on the target, and lay down some practice on that, the dot should become visible in your field of view around the same time as the front sight would be, making them just as fast (or faster) to pick up as your front iron sight. And because there's no rear sight to align from there, you can press the trigger as soon as the dot appears, making the overall shot process faster than irons.

From there, red dots present a number of additional benefits, including allowing you to remain focused on the threat throughout the engagement, aiding in faster followup shots, giving you a more precise aiming point, and allowing you to shoot more effectively at longer ranges.

Also, you seem to be under the impression that all self defense shootings are going to be rapid engagements where you won't have time to put the dot on target. If so, you certainly won't have time to use iron sights. So what does it matter? Besides, not all self defense shootings are going to be frantic contact distance point-shooting affairs anyway.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RogueJSK,

I too thought open sights were faster when I first got an RMR. It wasn’t until I asked for some coaching that it all clicked. Your target is your front sight on the dot. You press your way to the target and the dot appears. On irons, it’s “target”, “press” front sight, “Confirm” (checks that only take fractions of a second), “roll” breaking the shot. On a dot, it’s target, press, dot appears, roll. Here’s the honest truth, a slight missed grip on the draw and the whole thing gets slowed down. Things I was able to get away with on open sights are magnified on a dot. It has proven to me that I had areas not as clean as I thought. My draw, my grip, and my head placement (cross eye dominance) were all showing signs of inconsistency on the dot. I’ve spent hours cleaning those things up and I am more consistent and faster with both open sights and the dot. My shot timer doesn’t lie. Yes, I’m faster with the dot when I do my job. I’m not giving up my open sights on my carry gun yet, at least until I am all the way consistent with my draw.

Before you relegate the RMR to the novelty bin, use it as a training aid to correct issues with your draw or grip. Even if it never becomes a CCW weapon, it will make you better on open sights by cleaning up things that can be overcome with subconscious adjustments. Those subconscious adjustment take time and possibly a little accuracy. Aim small, miss small.

Thanks for the advice. I have a lot of time behind .22s and a .45 topped off with Burris Fast Fires. So while this is my first Glock with an RMR, it is not my first handgun with a RDS.

Dry fire 5 - 20 mins a night for a few weeks and you might change your tune, takes some time to get used to slightly dipping the muzzle end to get the dot. I thought the same thing when I got my setup. Just think about all the time you have on irons and all that muscle memory, you will have to change all that for the RMR.

A side note, I think having co-witnessing sights are way over rated especially on RMRs with small windows. I went with blacked out set of Dawson sights that are still very usable if I need them. If you haven't watched Aaron Cowan's video on his tortured RMR, go watch it.

Once you practice enough, the red dot will be faster than irons.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

Also, you seem to be under the impression that all self defense shootings are going to be rapid engagements where you won't have time to put the dot on target. If so, you certainly won't have time to use iron sights. So what does it matter? Besides, not all self defense shootings are going to be frantic contact distance point-shooting affairs anyway.

I have no desire to experience a situation where I have to use a pistol to defend myself, much less enough of those situations so that I can say I've experienced every conceivable scenario. The simple fact is the vast majority of people will never have to use a pistol in self defense. And the majority of those that do probably are in situations where the sight type didn't matter. I'm neither a cop nor an operator. I have no intention on engaging in protracted gun battles with bad guys. I'll shoot until I can get myself and loved ones away, then I'm disengaging. The likeliest scenario for anyone is the home burglary/invasion or getting accosted when getting out of your car or a carjacking. I can't imagine too many realistically likely scenarios where an RDS on a pistol is going to give you much of an advantage. RDSs make for great video commentaries. But in practical terms, I don't think they offer much on a self defense pistol. Watch the videos on the Active Self Protection YouTube channels. I haven't seen any where an RDS would have offered an advantage to a person having to fire their gun in self defense.


Like I said, I'm glad I did this one and will likely hang onto it for awhile. But now that I've done it, I wish I had done it to a G20 10mm. Walking down a dim trail with my camera and finding a 400lb black bear ambling up the trail towards me from the opposite direction, especially when there's no place to go except backwards or into a deep water filled ditch, is a more likely situation for me. In that situation, I'd have time to line up a shot.