Grease on tight guns - is it a "lapping compound"?
quote:
Originally posted by fritz: "Grease on tight guns - is it a lapping compound?"
Let me guess -- you've been reading about Les Baer's 1911 pistols.
No, a gunsmith that does work for me castigates me regularly regarding my use of grease and this is his most recent argument. that grease acts as a lapping compound.
On the 1911forum, Keith, I believe it was, from DW said the same thing regarding using grease on "tight guns", that it acts as a lapping compound and DW recommends using Miltec 1, FP-10 or TW25 grease if you must.
September 01, 2018, 07:03 PM
wcb6092
If you clean after every range session I don't think grease would be a problem. If you only clean every case of ammo don't matter what you use it will wear.I use grease on all my pistols even Glock.
_________________________ "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." Mark Twain
September 01, 2018, 07:20 PM
sns3guppy
quote:
Originally posted by SIGWolf: No, a gunsmith that does work for me castigates me regularly regarding my use of grease and this is his most recent argument. that grease acts as a lapping compound.
Your "gunsmith" is an idiot.
September 01, 2018, 08:02 PM
DSgrouse
I put this whole thing is ludicris. It is just the same as the guys at the gun stores saying shooting lead bullets will ruin your guns.
September 02, 2018, 01:58 AM
TRDoffroad
Eezox and Militec 1, work great for me.
September 02, 2018, 05:20 AM
SIGWolf
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
quote:
Originally posted by SIGWolf: No, a gunsmith that does work for me castigates me regularly regarding my use of grease and this is his most recent argument. that grease acts as a lapping compound.
Your "gunsmith" is an idiot.
He may be mistaken, but he's not an idiot and he is definitely not a "gunsmith". He is a Gunsmith, and does excellent work.
September 02, 2018, 07:55 AM
JDG
Most people clean their guns after they shoot them, they will never have an issue with grease or oil. If your an operator, and don't clean till it fails, well your an idiot. Insert your findings here.....
I use grease on my slide rails like Sig tells me to, and have never had an issue. I use oil on my AKs and ARs, never had an issue there either. I grease all my slides, bbl hoods, muzzles, oil my springs. I don't over clean my guns, but I do wipe them down every range trip, pull a snake through them, add a drop of grease if needed. These super tight 1911s that are galling up the frame rails are a special problem on their own, and the owners better follow the manufacturers break in process to a "T".
September 02, 2018, 08:20 AM
SSAreGreat
Does anyone have quotes from manufactuers or controlled studies done on using grease on handguns? If it was so problematic for firearms, many who use it would have discovered it thousands of rounds ago. Many of us over think gun issues. Aim and shoot straight.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Democracy is 2 Wolves & a Lamb debating the lunch menu.
Liberty is a well armed Lamb!
September 02, 2018, 08:32 AM
sigfreund
I’m curious how someone like a gunsmith knows things like that grease causes wear when used between tight fitting parts. What sorts of scientifically level and valid studies has he conducted (or at least read in peer-reviewed journals) that establish his basis for knowledge? It’s like the claim that was often repeated at one time that improper, “excessive” cleaning has ruined more guns than anything else. When we hear it, it’s always someone’s gunsmith who made it, and I’m always curious, How do they know? What evidence do they see that establishes that claimed fact? Do they all have ways of inspecting guns at the microscopic level to determine what wear has occurred and what caused it?
It’s one thing to make these claims based on an idea that someone thinks must be plausible, and it’s another to have a sound, evidence-based reasons for making them.
► 6.4/93.6
“Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.” — Plato
September 02, 2018, 08:35 AM
g8rforester
On it's face, this sounds like gun store BS: one guy knows a guy that heard from his buddy's world-famous gunsmith...
I've run grease on all my guns since they were new. My rails look great. My slides look great.
September 02, 2018, 08:59 AM
10round
There is a video where Ernest Langdon talks about sand and grit from the range getting in your gun and acting like a lapping compound with your lube.
DPR
September 02, 2018, 09:39 AM
sns3guppy
quote:
Originally posted by SIGWolf:
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
quote:
Originally posted by SIGWolf: No, a gunsmith that does work for me castigates me regularly regarding my use of grease and this is his most recent argument. that grease acts as a lapping compound.
Your "gunsmith" is an idiot.
He may be mistaken, but he's not an idiot and he is definitely not a "gunsmith". He is a Gunsmith, and does excellent work.
Oh.
Then he's very mistaken and doesn't know what he's talking about.
That's different.
Think about it. A lapping compound introduces a foreign abrasive material to polish a surface, whereas the two mating surfaces of the firearm are already in contact, and any material that ends up suspended in the grease is the same material as the two surfaces, with the same hardness. By definition, NOT a lapping compound.
Whereas the lapping compound is designed to beneficially micro-wear the surface, the grease is actually doing the opposite.
Any surfaces with grease will have some contamination from the surface, whether rails and a slide, or bearings and a race. Wear will occur, grease will get dirty, and it should be cleaned and replaced regularly. It's the reason that we repack wheel bearings. It's also the reason that we clean the grease off the firearm and re-lubricate.
It's not a lapping compound.
Do this: purchase two new identical firearms. Lubricate one with grease, the other with lapping compound. Fire 10,000 rounds. See what the results are (if you can keep the one lubricated with lapping compound running, that is). The difference will be apparent.
September 02, 2018, 10:32 AM
sigfreund
quote:
Originally posted by 10round: There is a video where Ernest Langdon talks about sand and grit from the range getting in your gun and acting like a lapping compound with your lube.
I’m not sure I understand the point of that observation.
It should not be a startling revelation that we should keep our guns free of sand and grit if we wish to minimize wear and damage to them. If a shooter is at the range and does something to get sand and grit on a gun, he should—unless, for example, there’s a large prize riding on the result of a competition—stop and take the time to remove the sand and grit and lubricate the gun again before continuing. Operating a firearm that’s contaminated with sand and grit is not a good idea regardless of whether it’s lubricated with grease or oil, or not lubricated at all. Sometimes that’s necessary, such as during a firefight in Iraq, but otherwise a prudent shooter who wishes to keep his gun in best condition won’t deliberately do that.
Added: And that issue is something else that bears on whether it’s a good idea to clean one’s guns at least occasionally. Now, it may not be something to be concerned about if one lives in a jungley rain forest or someplace else where every square inch of land is covered in lush vegetation and mineral dust in the air never occurs. But if one lives and shoots in other areas, including some parts of the good ol’ U.S. of A., that is common. I recently had to clean out a significant deposit of sand and dirt from the rear of my station wagon because I foolishly left it open on a windy day at the range. When I was stationed in Arizona I saw many vehicles that looked as if they had been sandblasted, and that was of course exactly what had happened to them.
If sand and dirt that can be seen and felt gets blown around, we can be certain that much smaller particles will end up on our guns in similar conditions. Those small mineral grains will then indeed act as abrasives regardless of what kind of lube they collect in or whether the gun is lubricated at all. And while that effect cannot be avoided completely, cleaning our guns and adding fresh, clean lubricant will minimize it.This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,
► 6.4/93.6
“Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.” — Plato
September 02, 2018, 11:36 AM
az4783054
For some reason I cannot get a song with dancing raisins out of my head...
Beware of a man whose only pistol is a 1911, he's probably very good with it.
September 02, 2018, 11:59 AM
46and2
quote:
Originally posted by JDG: your an idiot.
September 02, 2018, 01:16 PM
10round
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by 10round: There is a video where Ernest Langdon talks about sand and grit from the range getting in your gun and acting like a lapping compound with your lube.
I’m not sure I understand the point of that observation.
The OP's question was concerning grease and it's potential to become "like" a lapping compound. I quoted Ernest, even though he says he only uses oil, not grease on handguns, because it was had something to do with the original question. Ernest has much more experience with shooting than I do.
DPR
September 02, 2018, 01:50 PM
cas
quote:
Originally posted by jimmy123x:
The OP is asking about tight guns. Les Baer, Ed Brown, and Wilson Combat all recommend oil. They do not recommend using grease anywhere on their website or in their owners manual.
Because they are very tight when new and they don't want you sending it back because it doesn't function (if you gob it up with grease.)
I use grease on my fairly new Les Baer.
_____________________________________________________ Sliced bread, the greatest thing since the 1911.
September 02, 2018, 02:29 PM
SIGWolf
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
quote:
Originally posted by SIGWolf:
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
quote:
Originally posted by SIGWolf: No, a gunsmith that does work for me castigates me regularly regarding my use of grease and this is his most recent argument. that grease acts as a lapping compound.
Your "gunsmith" is an idiot.
He may be mistaken, but he's not an idiot and he is definitely not a "gunsmith". He is a Gunsmith, and does excellent work.
Oh.
Then he's very mistaken and doesn't know what he's talking about.
That's different.
Think about it. A lapping compound introduces a foreign abrasive material to polish a surface, whereas the two mating surfaces of the firearm are already in contact, and any material that ends up suspended in the grease is the same material as the two surfaces, with the same hardness. By definition, NOT a lapping compound.
Whereas the lapping compound is designed to beneficially micro-wear the surface, the grease is actually doing the opposite.
Any surfaces with grease will have some contamination from the surface, whether rails and a slide, or bearings and a race. Wear will occur, grease will get dirty, and it should be cleaned and replaced regularly. It's the reason that we repack wheel bearings. It's also the reason that we clean the grease off the firearm and re-lubricate.
It's not a lapping compound.
Do this: purchase two new identical firearms. Lubricate one with grease, the other with lapping compound. Fire 10,000 rounds. See what the results are (if you can keep the one lubricated with lapping compound running, that is). The difference will be apparent.
Thanks!
September 02, 2018, 04:17 PM
arcwelder
Going 10,000 rounds with actual lapping compound as lube... that would be something.
Arc. ______________________________ "Like a bitter weed, I'm a bad seed"- Johnny Cash "I'm a loner, Dottie. A rebel." - Pee Wee Herman Rode hard, put away wet. RIP JHM "You're a junkyard dog." - Lupe Flores. RIP
September 03, 2018, 02:41 PM
jimmy123x
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
quote:
Originally posted by SIGWolf:
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
quote:
Originally posted by SIGWolf: No, a gunsmith that does work for me castigates me regularly regarding my use of grease and this is his most recent argument. that grease acts as a lapping compound.
Your "gunsmith" is an idiot.
He may be mistaken, but he's not an idiot and he is definitely not a "gunsmith". He is a Gunsmith, and does excellent work.
Oh.
Then he's very mistaken and doesn't know what he's talking about.
That's different.
Think about it. A lapping compound introduces a foreign abrasive material to polish a surface, whereas the two mating surfaces of the firearm are already in contact, and any material that ends up suspended in the grease is the same material as the two surfaces, with the same hardness. By definition, NOT a lapping compound.
Whereas the lapping compound is designed to beneficially micro-wear the surface, the grease is actually doing the opposite.
Any surfaces with grease will have some contamination from the surface, whether rails and a slide, or bearings and a race. Wear will occur, grease will get dirty, and it should be cleaned and replaced regularly. It's the reason that we repack wheel bearings. It's also the reason that we clean the grease off the firearm and re-lubricate.
It's not a lapping compound.
Do this: purchase two new identical firearms. Lubricate one with grease, the other with lapping compound. Fire 10,000 rounds. See what the results are (if you can keep the one lubricated with lapping compound running, that is). The difference will be apparent.
A lapping compound is usually grease with ANY additive in it to smooth two parts mating surfaces together. The aggregate can be any number of materials depending on what you're lapping. Anything that acts like an aggregate can be used in grease to create a lapping compound. Commercially available ones can use aluminum oxide particles, glass beads, sand, or any number of stuff. Even toothpaste is considered a lapping compound as it contains silica or pumice in it.
I've made my own lapping compound out of grease and glass beads to lap props on a shaft because nobody had any lapping compound around, but the boat yard had glass beads for creating non skid in paint. It did the job.
Grease does collect foreign material in it, and when used long term in high speed moving parts, can become it's own lapping compound if left for long periods of time. Like running a gun for many rounds without cleaning it.
The gun does accumulate many foreign materials that are not from the slide or frame. Mainly from the round itself: lead particles, bronze particles, copper particles, unburnt powder residue, carbon all of which when allowed to accumulate in the grease COULD act as a lapping compound. So could oil if you're shooting in a very sandy (desert) atmosphere with a wet gun and shooting lots of rounds on a windy day without cleaning the gun. I think grease is more prone to it. But the gunsmith is not wrong. How many rounds it takes grease to accumulate enough crap in it to act as lapping compound, well that's the million dollar question but I'd guess at least 1,000 rounds if not much more.