I am strongly considering getting a very lightly used ( the seller claims 600 -1000 rounds since new ) P226 in .40 with the DAK trigger.

I am a guy who likes a deep, well centered dent in his primers for 100 % reliable ignition. Among you owners of DAK triggers have you ever had any light strike / light dent issues because of the light 6.5 lb pull and do yours whack a deep primer dent ?

The one I'm considering was made in 2010 and I thought I read somewhere that SIG started using a heavier mainspring at some point for the DAK but can someone confirm that ?

Thanks

I had a P224 DAK that had no problems whatsoever. I still have the P224, but it was converted to DA/SA.

When DAK pistols were originally released, they were equipped with what appeared to be the same mainspring used in DA/SA models. The DAK mechanism, however, does not compress the spring as far as the double action mechanism of a similar DA/SA pistol, and not too long thereafter the “red paint” mainspring was substituted in all models other than the P239. I suspect that when the guns were first developed, a limited variety of ammunition was used for testing, and the possible light strike problem was not recognized. The red mainspring is more powerful and delivers a heavier hammer strike. It also increased the factory spec trigger pull weight somewhat.

In my own experiences with DAK triggers, I found that even the red mainspring did not produce reliable ignition with some 9mm ammunition. That was with an early model P229 that was evidently converted at the factory to accept DAK parts. I also read here of other users having issues with 9mm DAK P229s, to the point that, as I recall, one simply converted back to DA/SA. All that was many years ago, and I have heard of no problems in recent times.

After I had problems, though, my response was to increase the mainspring compression before letoff by installing a small washer inline. Even though I’d only ever had ignition problems with the one 9mm P229, I made it a practice to add the washers to all my DAK pistols except the P239s.



Adding the washer obviously increased the trigger pull weights somewhat, but that never bothered me, and I’ve never experienced any light strike misfires since with the several DAK models I own (P220, P226, P229, P239).

I've owned one P229/357sig DAK and three P239 DAK pistols in all three calibers. I never experienced an issue. If in doubt, replace the springs and/or experiment with various width shims beneath the spring as suggested above.

Thanks to you both. Sigfreund, it sounds like they have less of a margin of error of being 100 % at best to being iffy at worst.

I think I will pass on this DAK.

I have several DAK's for many years and never had any problems with them. In fact, the DAK system is my favorite.

We all have our own standards and expectations. To put my comments in perspective, though, I have had fewer problems with the many DAK pistols in the 12+ years I’ve owned and used them than I have seen, for example, with Glocks and Remington 870 shotguns in the past year.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
We all have our own standards and expectations. To put my comments in perspective, though, I have had fewer problems with the many DAK pistols in the 12+ years I’ve owned and used them than I have seen, for example, with Glocks and Remington 870 shotguns in the past year.

Sigfreund, I realize that this is a bit of an open-ended question, but given your extensive experience with various guns and types of actions, including your long experience with the DAK, could you possibly quantify the reliability of the SIG DAK system compared to, say, a SIG DA/SA or P320 striker-fired system...

Given the same ammo, would the DAK be less reliable, just as reliable, or more reliable in igniting cartridges?

I own six DAK equipped pistols. I've NEVER had any kind of failure with any of them except one 226. That was the light strike issue. I inquired about that problem here and was informed about the newer, red painted mainspring. I purchased one and have never had a problem since. That gun has appx. 5K rounds fired through it since I made the change. I would without question buy that gun if the price was right.

I have a P229R in DAK and have had no issues at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
Given the same ammo, would the DAK be less reliable, just as reliable, or more reliable in igniting cartridges?

I’m not nearly as experienced as someone like jljones or many other trainers or competitors, especially with seeing other common types of pistols these days, but my comments for whatever they’re worth:

As I believe most of us recognize, many, and perhaps most, new guns are prone to problems at some early point in their development and use. I believe I still have an article someplace that was written by Massad Ayoob about the Glock when it was brand new and creating a major stir in handgunning circles. He gushed about the pistol’s many innovative features, but he wasn’t stinting in pointing out that it was far from having its own teething troubles. He mentioned that the magazines would disassemble themselves if dropped on a hard surface and that the gun itself wasn’t immune to the same thing: He described how the slide came off the frame of one gun when an LEO hit an arrestee on the head with it (remember, that was a long time ago). And of course—despite being “perfect”—Glocks have had various other problems over the years that required modifications.

To return to the SIGs you mentioned, if we’re referring only to firing reliability, the Classic line pistols have been in heavy use for decades without any systemic problems ever having been reported. My two most-used training DAK P226s have been fired over 10000 and 15000 times (9mm and 40 S&W, respectively) without a single misfire that wasn’t demonstrably due to dud ammunition. I had a 357 SIG P229 that I used extensively for training that fired over 8000 rounds without a hitch before I sold it because it couldn’t be converted to DAK; most of its life was as an old style DAO.

And of course we all know that the SEALs were evidently perfectly happy with their P226s and so are/were the Air Marshals and their 357 P229s. Above I discussed a little history of the DAK trigger and some early issues with misfires because the question was asked. If, however, anyone decides to avoid that trigger system because of a problem from well over a decade ago, he should also avoid Glocks and many other guns we could point to.

In comparing DA/SA and DAK Classic SIGs, I believe both are equally reliable with the same ammunition.

My experience with the P320 is thus far much less than with Classic line SIGs. Mine has only about 2000 rounds of mixed 357 and 40 through it thus far. A local agency issues them, but they haven’t seen much use either because of delays due to the “upgrade” thing. Some posters here have fired far more rounds with theirs, though, and I don’t recall reading of any misfire complaints. I like shooting the P320, but if I had to return to Viet Nam and slog through the jungle, I’d much prefer to have a DAK P226 with me rather than it (or any other handgun). Part of that reason is just because the P320 is new and I’m not as familiar with working on them as the Classic line pistols even though complete slide disassembly is much easier with the 320.

My agency issued them until we had multiple light strike issues in training. SIG sent out a rep to convert all DAK's to DA/SA. Ours were 9MM. For personal use, I'd experiment with hammer springs. For a bunch of cops who have to be paid to shoot, stock has to work...

-mb

quote:

Originally posted by MBOYD:
My agency issued them until we had multiple light strike issues in training. SIG sent out a rep to convert all DAK's to DA/SA. Ours were 9MM. For personal use, I'd experiment with hammer springs. For a bunch of cops who have to be paid to shoot, stock has to work...

-mb

When?

MBOYD, I too ask you when this occurred ? From reading about all of the positive reports from DAK owners I was about to take the plunge. Now I read this.

Thanks to all who contributed be it a positive or a negative.

quote:

Originally posted by MBOYD:
My agency issued them until we had multiple light strike issues in training.

And what model?

Sigfreund,

You stated that the issues you had with the DAK stemmed from a converted P229 and that other P229 DAK shooters experienced problems.

Do you feel that the issues that did arise were / are more prone with the P229 over say the P226 or have you heard of that model having issues as well ?

Also, would a P226 DAK that was made in 2010 likely have the improved red mainspring and any other modifications to improve ignition ? Thanks.

geo57, I understand your concern regarding the DAK system, but I find the likelihood of a 2010 manufactured P226 having problems to be low, very low.

It’s been so long since I was personally aware of light strike misfires in DAK pistols that I can’t be sure of some things I believe I remember, and of course industry information was not necessarily ever made public.

One thing that struck me at the time, though, was that my problems and the other one I remember hearing of both involved 9mm P229s. That’s why I’m curious for MBOYD to tell us what model(s) his agency was using. As far as I can determine, though, there is no theoretical or obvious mechanical reason why the P229 should have had problems when (if) the P226 didn’t. Their trigger and hammer mechanism parts are the same, and I cannot detect any difference in how they’re positioned in the frames. I would guess, therefore, that the fact I only heard of problems with the P229 was merely coincidence.

My 9mm 229 was modified at the factory to accept DAK parts after the frame was originally anodized, but as far as I can tell, all the modification does is make a little more room for the larger DAK trigger bar and (maybe) the hammer. As sort of an aside, I also had Grayguns modify a stainless steel P226 frame to accept DAK parts. That 357/40 gun hasn’t been fired much, but I never had any problems with it, even, as I recall, when it was used with the original DA/SA mainspring.

Ammunition, though, is another matter. I never heard of problems with guns chambered for 357 SIG or 40 S&W. Although we haven’t seen much discussion here in recent years, at one time there were many complaints about misfires with European-manufactured 9mm Luger ammunition. What I remember most clearly pertained to Sellier & Bellot, a Czech Republic company. The problems reported were with many different pistols, and I don’t think I ever saw a complaint by anyone who was using a DAK. Because we’re no longer seeing those complaints, I suspect S&B changed how they make their primers. But there have been complaints about other 9mm ammunition as well. A friend who has a single action only X-5 regularly had misfires with Winchester “white box” 115 grain stuff during the past year. I, however, had a batch of the same lot and never had any problems with it in my 9mm DAK P226.

As perhaps a final point about the DAK trigger mechanism, when using the short trigger reset, the hammer is drawn back and the mainspring is compressed to a noticeably lesser degree than if the trigger is allowed to reset fully forward. I and many other DAK shooters use the short trigger reset with no problem, but that difference in mainspring compression could result in light strikes with hard primers. Although SIG Sauer America has pretty well distanced itself from the DAK trigger these days, the last I remember hearing they seem to have been discouraging using the short reset. I believe it was the designer, Kellermann, who said in essence (not a direct quote), “Oh, no: You’re not supposed to actually use the short reset. That’s just to prevent a misfire if you short stroke the trigger.” That never made any sense to me, but it might if SIG was trying to deal with the light strike issue.

I would bet money (if not my house) that a P226 shipped from the factory in 2010 as a DAK has the red mainspring. The trigger system was introduced in 2004 and I believe the red spring was developed within a couple of years. It’s easy enough to check, though, by removing a grip plate. Changing the mainspring is also not difficult. Other than the spring, I’m not aware that SIG ever did anything to make DAK pistols be more reliable with primer ignition.

I bought a P229 DAK in 40S&W around 2006. The only problems I ever had with it were with Fiocchi remanufactured ammo. I had purchased a case of it to use in a GGI PF class (pre-OpSpec days) in 2007. I got multiple light strikes out of every box in that case. They would all go off if struck a second time. I eventually converted it to DA/SA, just because I shoot that system better, and then later on sold it for a 9mm. But I shot several other brands of 40S&W ammo through that gun while it was a DAK, and only ever had that problem with that case of ammo. Although I never bought any more reman'd Fiocchi.

I bought a 229 SAS right after they came out. Although I prefer DA/SA, that pistol has never malfunctioned or given me any reason not to trust it. I don't shoot it anywhere near as often as some of my others, but I would estimate I've shot between 2 and 3 thousand rounds in that gun without a hiccup.