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And the horse may learn to sing (150 yard shots with a P320 Carry). Update with red dot session, 30Jul22 Login/Join 
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted
In another recent thread the question was raised whether it was reasonably possible to score a hit with a handgun on a man-sized target at 150 yards. I decided to find out today.

An IALEFI-QP target was set up at a rangefinder-measured distance of 151 yards from the firing line. The pistol was a P320 Carry model chambered for 357 SIG and ammunition was Speer 125 grain Gold Dot. I was tempted to conduct the experiment with a full size P320 because of its longer sight radius, but settled on the Carry model with its (nominal) 3.9 inch barrel because that’s what I normally carry. That’s also the length of the barrel of the P229 that I carried for many years.

A quick ballistics solver check led me to believe that the bullet might drop about 20 inches from the point of aim at 150 yards and that I’d have to aim at the top of the target for a body hit. As was so often the case with long distance shots with defensive handguns, that was far too high. After four ranging shots I determined that the point of impact was close to where the top of the front sight blade was positioned on the target.

All shooting was from a rest on the top of a range bag on a folding table. That approximates shooting while resting on the roof or hood of my car. It was too windy to expect to get anything like a steady shot without a rest, so I decided not to waste the ammunition trying.

After determining the approximate point of aim necessary, I fired one shot. The bullet hole is in the lower left part of the upper torso, just above the highly realistic depiction of a gun. Roll Eyes (The many repairs were from numerous previous sessions.)





That hit sort of confirmed where I needed to aim, and then I fired five more shots. The hits are circled in the photo.





The target is narrower and significantly shorter than a man my size. Had I been the target, four of the five shots would have hit me: one in the torso as pictured, one in the torso between my right shoulder and centerline, one in the upper thigh, and one near the hip. Except for the upper left shot, the others would have benefited by a slightly higher point of aim. According to my ballistic solver, if fired at sea level the bullets would have had about 270 foot-pounds of energy left at 150 yards and could have caused serious, even fatal wounds.

So, what did all that demonstrate?

First was that given a decent gun and reasonably skilled shooter, hits on a stationary target are indeed possible with a defensive type handgun at 150 yards.
What it also demonstrated, though, is that shooters must know their guns and ammunition. Based on my own instructional experiences and one memorable report of a police engagement at about 50 yards, handgun shooters tend to aim far too high if they’re not practiced at longer ranges. The 357 SIG load I was shooting is significantly more powerful and has a flatter trajectory than the much more common 9mm Luger, not to mention the 45 ACP. The only good way to determine where it’s necessary to aim at long distances is to experiment with live fire with one’s carry ammunition.

It’s also necessary to anticipate that not all shots fired will hit the target. If they do, however, at least the distance will make it less important that they’re immediately incapacitating.

===================================

In response to the comment about using a pistol equipped with an optical sight, I fired a group using a full size P320 chambered for 9mm and equipped with a SIG Romeo 01 Pro red dot optic. Conditions were the same as described above: 150 yard target from the kneeling while resting the pistol on a range bag on a table. Ammunition was Speer 124 grain +P Gold Dot whose average measured velocity is 1236 feet per second.

I centered the dot reticle on the head zone of the target for all shots. I’m not sure why the impacts were all right of center, but I believe it’s a zeroing issue. At 15 yards the POI was about 1.5 inches above the point of aim. I fired one ranging shot at 150 yards before the five pictured.





Although the results of using the optical sight were better than with the irons, I found myself taking much more time to fire the shots because of a tendency to try to achieve a better sight picture. The dot reticle made the gun’s unsteady movement much more obvious than when using the irons in the original session.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,




7/93
 
Posts: 45712 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fire begets Fire
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Very cool.


We did something similar in 2004 with Bruce Gray. 100 yards, 8 inch steel plates, 9mm, laying in the dirt. Learned quite a bit.





"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty."
~Robert A. Heinlein
 
Posts: 25485 | Location: dughouse | Registered: February 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You guys with your flat shooting 357’s and such are going to make me buy one someday. I would love to see that recreated using a dot. I bet you could go 5/5. I’ve kind of become a fan of the dot. My shitty-er eyes are the catalyst.
 
Posts: 5243 | Registered: June 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:
I would love to see that recreated using a dot.


That is an idea. I do have access to a 9mm slide with optic, so I will have to try it. Thanks for the suggestion.




7/93
 
Posts: 45712 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
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Interesting how comments in one thread sparked a lot of conversation.

It is interesting as well that some reports lean toward the Greenwood, IN incident deal got sealed with an extended distance pistol shot. Similar distances that pundits have assured us a trip to prison for. The Chief called it “considerable distance” at the press conference, but some unconfirmed reports have cited 50 yards.

The Chief also hailed the 22 year old man as a “hero”.




www.opspectraining.com

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 36029 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
When you fall, I will be there to catch you -With love, the floor
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The 365 EDC event will have a stage with shots out to 75 yards...freestyle and a ammo total restriction.


Richard Scalzo
Epping, NH

http://www.bigeastakitarescue.net
 
Posts: 5754 | Location: Epping, NH | Registered: October 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Step by step walk the thousand mile road
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I inadvertently loaded some 9x19mm ammo with undersized bullets. Those things left the muzzle tumbling. I had several shots at 10 feet and the bullet hole was a perfect keyhole.

So I decided to try them at 100 yards against a standard IDPA target.

I hit 23 times out of 100 shots.

So I tried the same thing with Winchester white box. I hit 21 times out of 100 shots.

Go figure.





Nice is overrated

"It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government."
Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018

 
Posts: 29907 | Location: Loudoun County, Virginia | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:
I would love to see that recreated using a dot.


That is an idea. I do have access to a 9mm slide with optic, so I will have to try it. Thanks for the suggestion.


'Tis alleged... On the Holo Sun optics, if you zero the tip of the red chevron at the 25, the bottom of the chevron is good for the 100.


_____________________________________________________________________

"When its time to shoot, shoot. Dont talk!"

“What the government is good at is collecting taxes, taking away your freedoms and killing people. It’s not good at much else.” —Author Tom Clancy
 
Posts: 7264 | Location: Attempting to keep the noise down around Midway Airport | Registered: February 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best
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quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:
You guys with your flat shooting 357’s and such are going to make me buy one someday. I would love to see that recreated using a dot. I bet you could go 5/5. I’ve kind of become a fan of the dot. My shitty-er eyes are the catalyst.


This was kind of where my thought process was going when reading the other thread. I didn't comment in that one, because I don't carry a rifle off-duty, and I don't plan to start. If I'm ever involved in that situation, even on-duty, I'm likely going to have to get the job done with the sidearm that's already on my hip. But there may well be a solid argument for utilizing handgun equipment (like an RDS) as a daily carry tool that extends your capabilities out beyond what are typically viewed as normal handgun ranges.

I may have to go out play with some long range stuff with the dot just to see how it works in practice...maybe bring along my iron-sighted slide to compare.
 
Posts: 6008 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I practice this semi-regulary albeit to only 100yds but it's quite doable with my 38 Super. It mirrors the 357 sig round ballistically.
I also do this with a 9mm M&P with an RDS. I practice & expect head shots out to 50 yds & body shots at 100.
Not all "fights" will happen at 7 yds.


Rom 13:4 If you do evil, be afraid. For he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
 
Posts: 597 | Location: NW Ohio but Montana is always home. | Registered: September 30, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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All I know is that I shoot a red dot way way more accurately than irons. My buddy and I were shooting paper and a couple guys were shooting a steel plate at 50 yards. I don’t remember the plate size, it wasn’t huge nor was it teeny tiny so let’s say 6-8 inches. He was pretty impressed. After they left I told him we could do the same I was sure. I had my 365 with 507k aboard. I went 10/10 and he went something like 6/10. Dots are amazing. Whenever the discussion turns sour on them I bow out (unless I’m in argue mode lol) because I think it’s nuts to discount them for all around use. They work for basically everything. I’m sure someone can pick a scenario where irons win but overall they are the way to go. 40 yard shot with a dot is waaaay easier to hit with.
 
Posts: 5243 | Registered: June 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:
All I know is that I shoot a red dot way way more accurately than irons. My buddy and I were shooting paper and a couple guys were shooting a steel plate at 50 yards. I don’t remember the plate size, it wasn’t huge nor was it teeny tiny so let’s say 6-8 inches. He was pretty impressed. After they left I told him we could do the same I was sure. I had my 365 with 507k aboard. I went 10/10 and he went something like 6/10. Dots are amazing. Whenever the discussion turns sour on them I bow out (unless I’m in argue mode lol) because I think it’s nuts to discount them for all around use. They work for basically everything. I’m sure someone can pick a scenario where irons win but overall they are the way to go. 40 yard shot with a dot is waaaay easier to hit with.


Agreed. Especially for distance shooting, it's nice to not have to try to align the sights perfectly so you have equal hight and equal light, plus properly superimposed over the target. With the red dot, all you have to do is bring the dot in front of the target and squeeze. It also gives you a better view of the target as everything immediately below your point of aim isn't covered by your sights and slide like it is with irons.

The only place that I still struggle a bit with the dot is rapid, non-traditional stance stuff, especially one-handed under recoil. When your presentation is so far off that you have no idea where the dot is, it's nice to be able to use the irons as a reference point (and you still have that option with the dot, provided you've got backup irons mounted). I'm working at it and slowly getting better. It'll come, especially now that I can get ammo again.
 
Posts: 6008 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
goodheart
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quote:
We did something similar in 2004 with Bruce Gray. 100 yards, 8 inch steel plates, 9mm, laying in the dirt. Learned quite a bit.


Oh, I remember that but I think was in 2005? in Sacramento. It was I believe my first of now countless Grayguns/OpSpec classes. I had my first P229. I did unbelievably well for a newbie--hit something like 8 of 10 (can't swear to the number, but we all were pretty amazed it could be done).


_________________________
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Posts: 17039 | Location: One hop from Paradise | Registered: July 27, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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quote:
All I know is that I shoot a red dot way way more accurately than irons. My buddy and I were shooting paper and a couple guys were shooting a steel plate at 50 yards. I don’t remember the plate size, it wasn’t huge nor was it teeny tiny so let’s say 6-8 inches. He was pretty impressed. After they left I told him we could do the same I was sure. I had my 365 with 507k aboard. I went 10/10 and he went something like 6/10. Dots are amazing. Whenever the discussion turns sour on them I bow out (unless I’m in argue mode lol) because I think it’s nuts to discount them for all around use. They work for basically everything. I’m sure someone can pick a scenario where irons win but overall they are the way to go. 40 yard shot with a dot is waaaay easier to hit with.


Couldn't agree more.


Rom 13:4 If you do evil, be afraid. For he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
 
Posts: 597 | Location: NW Ohio but Montana is always home. | Registered: September 30, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Maybe nine years ago, I was introduced to a "game" that has competing shooters start at 25m, shooting at a steel silhouette or similar-sized target. They shoot, presumably hit, and then move back ten meters, and try again. They progress until there is a "last man standing", who never missed a shot. That game taught me the long range capabilities of handguns and their handlers, if the discipline is practiced. Some people are straight-up flabbergasted, when you tell them what's possible with a handgun; to the point they just think you're full of it. Hands-down, my most capable pistol at extended ranges is the HK P7; the accuracy combined with excellent trigger makes that thing feel like cheating. They Steyr L9A1 gets a mention too, due to the usefulness of the point of the front sight, when your target appears so small. Sadly, my MK25 has the poorest accuracy performance.
 
Posts: 1047 | Location: Northeast GA | Registered: February 15, 2021Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fire begets Fire
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quote:
Originally posted by sjtill:
quote:
We did something similar in 2004 with Bruce Gray. 100 yards, 8 inch steel plates, 9mm, laying in the dirt. Learned quite a bit.


Oh, I remember that but I think was in 2005? in Sacramento. It was I believe my first of now countless Grayguns/OpSpec classes. I had my first P229. I did unbelievably well for a newbie--hit something like 8 of 10 (can't swear to the number, but we all were pretty amazed it could be done).


Hi Stan! Yes, 2005. Hot as hell! Smile

Iirc, We were wrapping towels with ice and putting it around our necks and shoulders.

Good times.





"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty."
~Robert A. Heinlein
 
Posts: 25485 | Location: dughouse | Registered: February 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Casuistic Thinker and Daoist
Picture of 9mmepiphany
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sjtill:
quote:
We did something similar in 2004 with Bruce Gray. 100 yards, 8 inch steel plates, 9mm, laying in the dirt. Learned quite a bit.


Oh, I remember that but I think was in 2005? in Sacramento. It was I believe my first of now countless Grayguns/OpSpec classes. I had my first P229. I did unbelievably well for a newbie--hit something like 8 of 10 (can't swear to the number, but we all were pretty amazed it could be done).

I remember that class, but for some reason can't remember that distance shooting.

What does crop up in my memory about Graygun classes was the one we ran in SoCal at the Angeles range range shooting from the Eagle's nest. From the back of the Eagle's Nest, you could shoot at 6' steel down at the 300 yards range. I was there was Scott and we estimated our range (disregarding elevation) as between 150-200 yards. With my 9mm 226, I was aiming dead on. Scott said he was holding just over the top of the target with his 220. We had no problem ringing steel while standing free style...but no one was shooting back at us either




No, Daoism isn't a religion



 
Posts: 13899 | Location: northern california | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fire begets Fire
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Think it was late in the day, last event and Bruce had us put our peckers in the dirt. If you weren’t thinking clearly, that first shot put a big blast of dirt right into your snout! Next one too if you didn’t figure it out. Wink

I’ve not tried 200 with 9 milli yet … thanks for sharing!





"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty."
~Robert A. Heinlein
 
Posts: 25485 | Location: dughouse | Registered: February 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Still finding my way
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A buddy and me were out a couple years ago shooting rifles and got into a friendly competition shooting the 150 yard targets with our pistols we had that day. He had a P226 and I had a CZ P09. It took a bit but we were able to ring the steel a couple times out of ten standing unsupported.
It was a lot of fun.
 
Posts: 9859 | Registered: January 04, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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In Jan 1994, an AF Security Police airman with an M9 killed an active shooter at 70 yds.

"When the killer refused commands to disarm and fired shots at the young police officer, Brown fired at him four times with his M9 pistol, striking him in the shoulder and face, and ending the threat. Post-event investigation indicated that Brown’s final pistol shot was fired at a distance between 68 and 71 yards, but his first hit would have been made at an even farther distance, since the killer was advancing on him as he fired."

Complete article with few technical details:

https://www.police1.com/active...ng-11AZrSqTp4IM3diw/
 
Posts: 15337 | Location: Eastern Iowa | Registered: May 21, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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