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Sigforum K9 handler |
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Casuistic Thinker and Daoist |
That video clip is not what I'm referring to about "leaving the gun extended toward the target" Not only is Manny bringing the gun in (since he references pushing it back out when his reload is completed), he is also canting it to point toward the raising magazine. That is the correct technique.. If you're bring it in much closer than that it is wasted motion. I've seen a lot of instruction where they teach the student to bring the arms in until the elbows touch the rib cage. The only reason that I can see why it is taught that way is because the instructor doesn't understand the optimal technique enough to explain it to the student No, Daoism isn't a religion | |||
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| Member |
Cool then. That video has caused a little storm when "tactical crowd" said that the gun was too far out and that would get you killed on the streets. Glad to see that you and I don't share that sentiment. In training that I received, there was a well articulated reason to have a strong arm / elbow touch the chest during reload though and that is to stabilize the gun against a bounce when moving. Won't necessarily give the fastest reload but does help to have a consistent one. I find it less relevant when gun has a gigantic magwell like Manny's and more relevant on carry or Production guns. | |||
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| Casuistic Thinker and Daoist |
While we may agree on the technique Manny is using, I don't think we do on the value of the elbow being in contact with the chest. It sounds very much like a "justification" reason for a less than optimal technique. Beside cramping the arms when that close to the body, having the elbow in contact with the chest does not stabilize the gun while moving...it makes it worst. When shooting or reloading on the move, the legs should move independently of the arms. Your core will move with the jolts of your steps. Having your elbows against your chest will interfere with your arms being stabilized. By allowing your arms to "float" in your workspace, you have a stable magwell to insert a smoothly moving magazine into...it is the same reason you don't hold your elbow/arm against your chest when walking and holding a cup of coffee. Take a look at good USPSA shooters when they are reloading on the move between positions. Their elbows are nowhere near being in contact with their chest No, Daoism isn't a religion | |||
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| Member |
Good USPSA shooters.. https://vimeo.com/ondemand/10683/87244639?autoplay=1 Play the trailer, shows Ben doing reloads several times from different angles, that elbow is pretty darn close to his chest, if not touching it. There's a full video of Alex's last year's Nationals, his technique is very similar. I actually do not disagree with you as it may sound. I don't find anymore that a rigid contact with the rib cage is that beneficial although I used to do it. I do find it that when my arm is as far out as Manny's and the gun doesn't have a big magwell, gun bounces too much for a reliable reload. In my observations dudes who shoot production exclusively or primarily tend to bring their guns in closer than limited or open guys. Maybe not in full or strong contact with a chest but pretty close. | |||
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| Casuistic Thinker and Daoist |
I've trained with Ben. What you're seeing isn't him specifically bringing his elbow to his chest. What he's doing is bringing the magwell to the magazine. While his elbow is fairly close to his chest, the intent isn't to index there for consistent placement, but is incidental to pointing and bringing the magwell to the raising magazine No, Daoism isn't a religion | |||
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| Sigforum K9 handler |
The "look he can do it" argument has existed since the beginning. The "its what is best for me" crowd always seem to use it for obscure stuff. Take the Bruce Willis-hook-the-finger-around-the-trigger guard crew. They always point to Jerry Miculek as the crown jewel in their argument. "See he can do it so it has to be legit". Yeah, he can do it. Sample size of one. Look at the other several thousand competitors that are at that level that don't. News flash- the rest of us mere mortals can't successfully pull it off. Even Jerry doesn't do it consistently. Mainstream techniques at a higher level are just that. Mainstream. They work. Arguing over small stuff as a "see look" dirties the waters. Yeah, a couple of people can pull it off. The rest of us can't. | |||
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| Member |
Yes, certainly, we do have to consider whether the technique is reproducible to a larger sample size. Or at least to a larger than n=1 sample size, which is why the Bruce Willis hook the trigger guard crew points not only to Jerry but also to Eric Grauffel and Angus Hobdell. Or Vogel who seems to fall into an intermediate position on this subject. At least there is a theoretic plausibility why their techniques might work well. 9mmepiphany, thanks for the context. | |||
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| Member |
When I was Firearms Instructor for my PD, I had to go to a couple of classes each year in order to stay certified. Many of them taught any number of techniques that I considered to be "advanced". Some worked well for me, some not so well. But.... most of the stuff I saw or learned could not be taken back to the troops. Why? Because do to lack of interest, lack of money, lack of time, lack of range availability and lack of ammo (many lacks) I could not expect the average cop to train enough with advanced techniques to be able to use them consistently. And I think that applies to most of us here on the forum as well. You are far better off to drill simply and realistically than to attempt a lot of high speed, low drag stuff. And this is what annoys me about a lot of stuff you see out there. Cool stuff! But as YVK said, not reproducible to a larger sample size. End of Earth: 2 Miles Upper Peninsula: 4 Miles | |||
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Armed and Gregarious |
My big pet peeve? When someone doesn't want to train with, or take any tips from someone, that wasn't part of a big name military or LE group. There are a great deal of very good competitive shooters who have a great deal to offer on how to be both fast and accurate. The subset in LE is those that heavily favor anything said by the guys on the tactical teams, over anyone else. Funny thing, from what I've seen, when it comes to pistols, guys that work patrol and do true UC have more real world shootings, than the tac teams. Now, when it comes to long guns, it's the tac team that has the more real world shootings. So I'm always baffled why people default to what ever the "SWAT" guys preach about the pistol. The annoying corollary to that is the: "I use this because it's a combat technique, not a competition technique," with no consideration to the fact that many techniques developed in competition are directly applicable to "combat" shooting, and that many techniques adopted by military and LE came from competition. When I first got serious about shooting pistols, this was most often seen in arguments about Weaver v. any other stance. This was because for decades much of the military and LE had used Weaver, but at the time serious competitors had abandoned Weaver, and it was just starting to fall out of favor with the military and LE. What most people neglected was that the military and LE adopted the Weaver stance because Jack Weaver, and then other competitors who adopted his technique, were cleaning everyone's clocks in COMPETITIONS. They also failed to grasp that Weaver was winning not because of the particulars of his stance, but because he was using two handed aimed shooting, against one handed shooters, many of whom were point shooting. The same attitude is now seen today in things like debates over whether to use the slide release or "slingshot" method to release the slide during reloads. Ridiculous claims, with zero basis in reality, will be made about what does, and does not, work in "combat," with little to no consideration that there can be more than one right answer, and what is best for one person is not necessarily best for another. That attitude also creates a convenient (and completely BS) excuse for those that want to rationalize poor performance. It's most often presented by those who are afraid to show up to a USPSA or IDPA match knowing there are people out there who are going to shoot much better than they can. They will lie to both themselves, and those they make the proclamation to, that the reason they don't compete, or don't compete well, is because they are so "tactical," and the games will build bad habits that will "get them killed on the streets." I have had all kinds of "tactical" training. However, I "suck" at USPSA/IPDA because my trigger control is a little weak, and the faster I go, the weaker it gets. It's that simple. I'm not making excuses that I'm not winning because of my "tactical" gear or adherence to "tactical" techniques. I'd love to get to the point where not having gear specifically for competition, or certain techniques, were an actual factor in how well I shoot the games. However, I'm a long way from being there, "but I'm tryin' Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard . . ."  ___________________________________________ "He was never hindered by any dogma, except the Constitution." - Ty Ross speaking of his grandfather General Barry Goldwater "War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them all they want." - William Tecumseh Sherman | |||
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It's my way or the Highway |
Here's an "idea" I don't like..... You think that "advanced" courses will somehow make you better when you haven't mastered the basics of fundamental marksmanship. To truly grasp speed or distance you need to have a solid foundation of trigger control. A lot of shooters overlook this and think that the basics are beneath them and look to gadgets or work to compensate. It's the software, not the hardware. | |||
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Member |
I have been fortunate to train with a group of LEO/Military Trainers who have lived what they preach and train. There is never a day on the range that drills aren't so mixed up you as the shooter never knows what's next. The drill is barked out and you must perform is seconds not a 10 minute run thru first. If you run the drill and it's done right with the amount of hits the instructors want you get a thumbs up if not "You'er dead Old Man". They place us in as close as they can get to real life. Yes there scanning and the push out of the weapon but I think they do that to screw with us. We are told to always be loaded to the max, stuff magazines every minute you are not shooting. To know your weapons system to be able to take it apart and put it back together again in the dark. I look at many other training videos and yes there is some silly moves out there. Chris | |||
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| Sigforum K9 handler |
Interesting enough, I tell people constantly that carry a gun for a living that showing up to USPSA or IDPA is like going to the gym. All you have to do is keep showing up, even if you suck at it. | |||
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Member |
People that Scan and Assess excessively. I get it. You watched some interwebs videos of guys way better than you. He did it so now you do it every freaking magazine you run through your pistol. While target shooting. At a indoor square range. A bit excessive. Train how you intend to Fight Remember - Training is not sparring. Sparring is not fighting. Fighting is not combat. | |||
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| Armed and Gregarious |
Damn, I wasted dozens of sentences to get to a point you summed up well in two sentences. So, I suck at writing too, but I'll keep showing up for that too!  ___________________________________________ "He was never hindered by any dogma, except the Constitution." - Ty Ross speaking of his grandfather General Barry Goldwater "War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them all they want." - William Tecumseh Sherman | |||
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fugitive from reality |
The gross vs fine motor skills debate is always good for a laugh. So is the crowd that looks down on not shooting your carry gun for all your training, no exceptions. As if taking a different gun to the range is going to make you forget how the other one works. I like to point out that while I was in uniform I was fluent in at least five different small arms weapons systems, and I never forgot which one I was using when I was on the line. _____________________________ 'I'm pretty fly for a white guy'. | |||
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