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Not starting this for any specific mud-slinging directed at anybody so please try to refrain from naming any trainers specifically. I'll go first...you hear the phrase "train like you fight". If you train like you fight....why would you ever load your mag to less than full capacity? I've done classes and watched videos of the whole load two or three, then reload. Isn't that kind of building a "training scar" where you get into the habit of "pop pop pop" then reload? I'd hate to have done that drill 1,000 times and have something happen in real life and do the "pop pop...drop a loaded mag on the ground". Anybody else notice anything done in training that doesn't make sense? | ||
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| Member |
If you're doing reloading drills, mag changes, refreshing the weapon... starting off with less than a full mag kinda makes sense, this way, you're not going through (depending on the weapons platform) 7-17 rounds before a reload. Even teaching malfunction drills. What never made sense to me was standing in one fucking spot. MOVE DAMNIT! We did it in the academy, and the majority of our training is done that way. We're also limited to a static indoor range with booths. Kinda hard to teach movement. (Than again, some of the people we have carrying guns scares me!) ______________________________________________________________________ "When its time to shoot, shoot. Dont talk!" “What the government is good at is collecting taxes, taking away your freedoms and killing people. It’s not good at much else.” —Author Tom Clancy | |||
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| His diet consists of black coffee, and sarcasm.  |
Empty-chamber carry. | |||
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Member |
In general I would agree. However, it has to be recognized that some may be forced to carry with an empty chamber. In the military , I've carried both "cocked & locked" (BHP) and empty chamber. Depends on the threat assessment in the area and the use of Force posture the army wishes to project. So it can be a viable TTP (tactics/techniques/procedures) for those so limited | |||
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Member |
Speed Reloads I don't practice these at all. I do practice empty reloads and some tac loads but don't ever see the need for a speed reload. If the threat is still there, shoot till it stops being there or till empty. If empty, reload, and shoot till the threat stops being there or empty. If empty... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tomorrow's battle is won during today's practice. | |||
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| Freethinker |
What are “speed” reloads? ► 6.4/93.6 ___________ “We are Americans …. Together we have resisted the trap of appeasement, cynicism, and isolation that gives temptation to tyrants.” — George H. W. Bush | |||
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| Member |
Yeah, I have no idea what that is. There are slide lock reloads, magazine exchanges (tac reloads to most people, though I'm with Mike Pannone on the terminology for these), and then however you load administratively. | |||
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| Freethinker |
Thanks for that. Along with expressions like “type 23zt69 malfunctions,” I have long thought that the terms “tactical reloads” and “emergency reloads” (or “panic reloads,” or whatever the nom du jour may be) were meaningless at best and simply stupid at worst. I switched to referring to them as reactive and proactive reloads years ago, but now I like “magazine exchange.” I believe I’ll start using that along with just plain “reloads.” As for working with partially-loaded magazines in training, to do otherwise would either not give people the same amount of practice with reloads, or would require vastly more ammunition for the same results. It’s impossible to eliminate all artificial elements in any reasonable training program, but the best way to prevent their adverse effects any more than necessary is to mix things up: Sometimes the shooter is out of ammunition at the end of a string, sometimes not. My most common training regimen uses multiple stages fired at different distances, different numbers of targets, reloads, no reloads, magazine exchanges, transitions from rifle or not, use of cover or not, etc. I believe it does a fair job of preventing rut-development. ► 6.4/93.6 ___________ “We are Americans …. Together we have resisted the trap of appeasement, cynicism, and isolation that gives temptation to tyrants.” — George H. W. Bush | |||
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The Blue Machine |
I believe the term is used to refer to ejecting a partial magazine to the ground, then reloading with a full magazine. I see no value in this technique whatsoever. | |||
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| Freethinker |
Ah, thanks. I suppose it has benefits in gun games, but not for any serious purpose. Something in a similar vein I don’t let my students do when running the “action” courses I set up is reload on the move (if they can reload behind cover or a “safe” location). So I guess that (reloading on the move) is something I can point to as being a tactically unwise technique, but which is often permitted or even encouraged. ► 6.4/93.6 ___________ “We are Americans …. Together we have resisted the trap of appeasement, cynicism, and isolation that gives temptation to tyrants.” — George H. W. Bush | |||
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Sigforum K9 handler |
I don't get the resistance. It's sorta like the idea that I go to the county fair when its in town. And all night long, I ride the bumper cars with my kids because they love it. So, beings I have been on the bumper cars so much, I'm going to hit every car on the interstate I see on the way home? Train like you fight? If a person is mechanical enough that they are going to drop a magazine after a few rounds because they have been doing mag drills so much, they probably are too mechanical to win a shoot out, and are likely doomed to begin with. Training the subconscious to do the required tasks efficiently is what makes a winner. They are training the subconscious to perform the wrong tasks. They are training the subconscious to count the rounds, instead of react to the gun. That isn't a training scar, it is a training failure. It is not the fault of the drill. | |||
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| Member |
Sure thing. Here's Mike explaining it. One of the many reasons he's my favorite instructor: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zDpLmJyiIyc | |||
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| Member |
Standing still, and not just turning around and looking when scanning the rear 180. Also, stowing a partial mag in a pocket leaving an un-used mag pouch empty. Just grab the tac-load mag from the rear position if you have multiple mags and put the partial back. It will be the last mag you grab. If you only have 1 spare, then pocket stowing the partial is really silly, how can it get confused with a full one? There aren't any more. A huge training scar I see is to shoot 2 and pause. This is almost comically obvious if you set up a reactive dropping 3D target and the first 2 don't drop it. Pregnant pause followed by another 2... Regarding training with partially loaded mags, you shouldn't be counting rounds or loading the same amount. I stuff between 5-10ish in there, sometimes with brass mixed in for a malf. I don't know when the reload or malf. will occur. “People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik Be harder to kill: https://preparefit.ck.page | |||
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| Member |
wacky shooting positions ------------------------------------------ Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. | |||
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| Member |
Snatching the gun back off target, often followed by the uber most tactical left right head thrash. Terrible follow through followed by terrible scanning. | |||
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| Freethinker |
“Making up words that don’t mean anything [and must be translated].” Even though I didn’t know how he would put it, I knew almost exactly the point he was going to make before I clicked on the video. Now I know how he put it and have stolen it for my own use.  ► 6.4/93.6 ___________ “We are Americans …. Together we have resisted the trap of appeasement, cynicism, and isolation that gives temptation to tyrants.” — George H. W. Bush | |||
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Casuistic Thinker and Daoist |
You'd only build a training scar if you "game" the drill. The drill is to train/groove in the reaction of reloading when the magazine in your gun is empty and you need to perform a Slide Lock reload. If you are counting the rounds to build up the reaction after a certain number of rounds, you're subverting the purpose of the drill...which is only a disservice to yourself
The technique I hate seeing the most is leaving the gun extended toward the target during a reload. I understand why you need it along a static line of new shooters (my academy)...because you don't want them sweeping each other all along the line...but to have folks believe there is actually a speed/tactical advantage to it is just going overboard No, Daoism isn't a religion | |||
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| Freethinker |
It’s such examples that cause me to cringe a little when someone blithely posts, “Get some training.” Many people seem to assume that all training is equal, and in particular that no one ever gets bad training. Holding a gun extended toward the target during a reload is not the natural way of doing things, so if they do that, they were probably trained to do it. In fact, they were probably admonished for not doing it until it became automatic. And if their only training was received standing in a line at an academy, when would they have ever learned otherwise? I have expressed my controversial opinions elsewhere about the idea that there are only a very few number of gun safety rules and about how much sense some of the commonly-cited rules make. Some of my thoughts about common gun handling and shooting techniques would be at least as controversial. ► 6.4/93.6 ___________ “We are Americans …. Together we have resisted the trap of appeasement, cynicism, and isolation that gives temptation to tyrants.” — George H. W. Bush | |||
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| Member |
It depends on the context, application, and, to some extent, gear. For example, Manny is one of the top national GM's, Super-Squad level, and this is a 0.8 sec reload that I've seen him do fairly routinely. For his needs it is the way and, frankly, if I could do it that fast and that reliably, I'd take that over my "bring in the gun close" 1.5-2.5 reload (depending on gun and setup) any day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2hmo3TFxys As far as the original post is concerned, what doesn't make sense to me is any drill when a shooter shoots to a pre-specified time cadence as opposed to a sight picture, or an attempt to achieve one. | |||
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| JOIN, or DIE |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 9mmepiphany: You'd only build a training scar if you "game" the drill. The drill is to train/groove in the reaction of reloading when the magazine in your gun is empty and you need to perform a Slide Lock reload. If you are counting the rounds to build up the reaction after a certain number of rounds, you're subverting the purpose of the drill...which is only a disservice to yourself [QUOTE] I suppose that is the type of thing I'm getting at. If you are trying to instill the immediate instinct to reload, then why not change between say 2-5 rounds? There are a few other examples of things that hopefully I'll remember soon. The whole idea that got me thinking was two-fold. The first is the example I gave with getting into a repetitive groove and the second is the "train like you fight" mantra that some say even though they aren't training like they fight. | |||
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