quote:

Originally posted by arlen:
The grip is shaped such that it looks like you are holding a turd.

Never having held a turd, it’s good that someone who is evidently an authority on the subject has chimed in with such a valuable observation. Is this place great, or what?

quote:

Originally posted by Bigboreshooter:
You could have saved the Army a lot of time and testing, huh?

Isn't this the second time you made this comment?
Time and testing...if we're talking about years in service with numerous agencies, I think the Glock17/19 could've saved Big Green a whole lotta of time and testing.

Good enough for 75th Ranger and MARSOC but not for the "Army"???? Haha!

Come on man.

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:

quote:

Originally posted by hkusp9:
Sorry, I only buy Sigs with a hammer.

Fair enough. How do you like the P250?

Ok let me rephrase that....I only buy Sigs that have a hammer and are DA/SA....that better?

Got my P320c last summer after years of searching for a new handgun and have retired my G17, P7 and P228 to the safe.

I love the way it feels, shoots and carries for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:

quote:

Originally posted by Bigboreshooter:
You could have saved the Army a lot of time and testing, huh?

Isn't this the second time you made this comment?
Time and testing...if we're talking about years in service with numerous agencies, I think the Glock17/19 could've saved Big Green a whole lotta of time and testing.

Good enough for 75th Ranger and MARSOC but not for the "Army"???? Haha!

Come on man.

Then we shouldn't bother Glocks for everyone. If you don't make Glocks you should just close up shop.

That mindset is why the only time Glock actually produces improvements to their guns is when a major LE contract like the FBI starts hinting that they will jump ship if they don't get it. These Congressional required competitions are put in specifically to promote a healthy industry.

Personally I wonder if the expansion of the Glock contract to all of SOCOM is even legal. As I am fairly sure that contract started as an exempt contract because it was so small, would the expansion expand it beyond what was legally allowed for a single source contract?

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
High bore axis is something that seems to be said quite often by people who armchair experts. It sounds excitingly scientific and precise. It seems like the sort of thing that an actual expert might say.

The bore axis of the P320 is very similar to the 1911 bore axis. Yet no one complains of high bore axis on the 1911s.

quote:

The big thing I notice is the fact that it is tolerant to bad inputs.

When Jerry says something like this, I STFU and take notes.

I don't expect one will replace my daily carry, and I don't think it will do things my G19 won't do.

However, for the same reasons I own a Colt 1911 and a Beretta 92, the OP is probably right. I probably will buy a Sig 320.

Funny, I've never shot a pistol and noticed whether it had a high or low bore axis. I'm glad there are experts who can let me know. I also used to be ignorant of things like trigger reset but now I can shoot really super fast.

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
High bore axis is something that seems to be said quite often by people who armchair experts. It sounds excitingly scientific and precise. It seems like the sort of thing that an actual expert might say.

The bore axis of the P320 is very similar to the 1911 bore axis. Yet no one complains of high bore axis on the 1911s.

Interesting...never knew that. On the other hand, bore axis is irrelevant to me with pistols. Bruce Gray didn't feel handicapped while competing with his "high bore axis" DA/SA Sigs.

IMO, revolvers are a different species regarding bore axis. Pistols have a lot of other complex design characteristics that can offset a higher bore axis. With revolvers, by comparison, it is a very simple physics equation.

An example I've observed on the range is J-frame .357 revolvers. A friend (very accomplished shooter) was shooting a S&W J-frame 3" .357 with factory loads. Sucker really climbed after each shot. I had my Ruger SP101 3" .357 (lower bore axis), which is very manageable under recoil. Let him shoot it with same loads and observed. Difference (muzzle rise) was VERY pronounced.

Many shooters fail to understand that it's their job to understand how the gun WANTS to be shot and what they have to do to adapt their technique. P320's...are different from Glocks...are different from Sig DA/SA's... are different from 1911's. "Bore axis" is just one more alibi for not shooting well.

I have a more wait and see attitude. Sig has had a few pistols in the last few years, that just went bust, and has not been profitable. The p250 is now offered only in .22 long rifle, and the P224 has been discontinued. The p320 has only been around about two years. We will see how well it's "modularity " lasts in the hands of thousands of GIS.

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
High bore axis is something that seems to be said quite often by people who armchair experts. It sounds excitingly scientific and precise. It seems like the sort of thing that an actual expert might say.

The bore axis of the P320 is very similar to the 1911 bore axis. Yet no one complains of high bore axis on the 1911s.

I understand. I was saying that it is something pseudo-experts say, having seen it written in some gun rag.

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
High bore axis is something that seems to be said quite often by people who armchair experts. It sounds excitingly scientific and precise. It seems like the sort of thing that an actual expert might say.

The bore axis of the P320 is very similar to the 1911 bore axis. Yet no one complains of high bore axis on the 1911s.

The inability to differential between steel/alloy Sig P226/1911's and polymer guns with higher bore axis is not surprising.

We're supposed to believe the added weight of the frame doesn't help with recoil management? smh..

Your arguments would be more viable if all factors were taken into account and you might come off a little less of a fan boy.

I check them out on gunbroker from time to time but have never shot one. Found one for $390 the other day but just couldn't brimg myself to spend the $. Then ended up spending more on a HK. I prefer a weapon with a hammer, but I may pick one up to see how they perform since that gov contract may have a great effect on demand and pricing.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
High bore axis is something that seems to be said quite often by people who armchair experts. It sounds excitingly scientific and precise. It seems like the sort of thing that an actual expert might say.

The bore axis of the P320 is very similar to the 1911 bore axis. Yet no one complains of high bore axis on the 1911s.

The inability to differential between steel/alloy Sig P226/1911's and polymer guns with higher bore axis is not surprising.

We're supposed to believe the added weight of the frame doesn't help with recoil management? smh..

Your arguments would be more viable if all factors were taken into account and you might come off a little less of a fan boy.

Not a fanboy. But, bore axis is a small, small piece of the pie. It doesn't qualify, or disqualify a pistol from being shootable. Grip and follow through play a much larger part. The lighter the gun, the more your grip and follow through has to be on.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
High bore axis is something that seems to be said quite often by people who armchair experts. It sounds excitingly scientific and precise. It seems like the sort of thing that an actual expert might say.

The bore axis of the P320 is very similar to the 1911 bore axis. Yet no one complains of high bore axis on the 1911s.

The inability to differential between steel/alloy Sig P226/1911's and polymer guns with higher bore axis is not surprising.

We're supposed to believe the added weight of the frame doesn't help with recoil management? smh..

Your arguments would be more viable if all factors were taken into account and you might come off a little less of a fan boy.

Not a fanboy. But, bore axis is a small, small piece of the pie. It doesn't qualify, or disqualify a pistol from being shootable. Grip and follow through play a much larger part. The lighter the gun, the more your grip and follow through has to be on.

All true.
No doubt a small piece of the pie.

A gun weighing 32+oz will be easier to recoil manage than a 25oz gun with = bore axis for the same shooter. That's physics.

Similarly equal weight guns with differences in bore axis, with handle recoil differently for the same shooter. Given most of Big Green peeps get very little training on pistol, there in could lie an intangible difference in performance.

Giving anecdotal "evidence" about P226 or 1911 having a higher bore axis, is just that...anecdotal.

This selection likely had more to do with price than any real performance difference. Sig may make it up in higher prices to consumers for "P320 chosen by the US Army"..

Enjoy your P320s.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
High bore axis is something that seems to be said quite often by people who armchair experts. It sounds excitingly scientific and precise. It seems like the sort of thing that an actual expert might say.

The bore axis of the P320 is very similar to the 1911 bore axis. Yet no one complains of high bore axis on the 1911s.

The inability to differential between steel/alloy Sig P226/1911's and polymer guns with higher bore axis is not surprising.

We're supposed to believe the added weight of the frame doesn't help with recoil management? smh..

Your arguments would be more viable if all factors were taken into account and you might come off a little less of a fan boy.

I'm a fan boy? That is rich, first off SIG is on my shit list right now due to non-gun related stuff.

Second I am shooting a 2011 and a JP GMR-13 pretty much exclusively these days. And I am carrying a Glock 19 and a Ruger LCP.

I might use my P320 in NRA AP in April, but that is only because I haven't gotten the cash together to buy a STI Targetmaster.

The bore axis argument is stupid, I shot the shit out of the P320 when I was sponsored by SIG and at no point did I feel that the recoil was any worse than my Glocks (which I shoot a couple times a year with the same ammo for GSSF). Sure it isn't anywhere near as light as my 9mm 1911 but that is 7 oz heavier.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:

quote:

Originally posted by Bigboreshooter:
You could have saved the Army a lot of time and testing, huh?

Isn't this the second time you made this comment?

Yes, yes it is. I find it quite amusing when people who have ZERO experience with a gun declare it somehow deficient, or that the military is somehow making a mistake in choosing it.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Blackwater:

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
High bore axis is something that seems to be said quite often by people who armchair experts. It sounds excitingly scientific and precise. It seems like the sort of thing that an actual expert might say.

The bore axis of the P320 is very similar to the 1911 bore axis. Yet no one complains of high bore axis on the 1911s.

The inability to differential between steel/alloy Sig P226/1911's and polymer guns with higher bore axis is not surprising.

We're supposed to believe the added weight of the frame doesn't help with recoil management? smh..

Your arguments would be more viable if all factors were taken into account and you might come off a little less of a fan boy.

Not a fanboy. But, bore axis is a small, small piece of the pie. It doesn't qualify, or disqualify a pistol from being shootable. Grip and follow through play a much larger part. The lighter the gun, the more your grip and follow through has to be on.

All true.
No doubt a small piece of the pie.

A gun weighing 32+oz will be easier to recoil manage than a 25oz gun with = bore axis for the same shooter. That's physics.

Similarly equal weight guns with differences in bore axis, with handle recoil differently for the same shooter. Given most of Big Green peeps get very little training on pistol, there in could lie an intangible difference in performance.

Giving anecdotal "evidence" about P226 or 1911 having a higher bore axis, is just that...anecdotal.

This selection likely had more to do with price than any real performance difference. Sig may make it up in higher prices to consumers for "P320 chosen by the US Army"..

Enjoy your P320s.

I agree.

The there are several funny things about these arguments.

When I was in the Marines, I worked on the A6E Intruder. For what it did, it was unparalleled. But, the airframes were old. Some parts were obsolete. You had to rob from Peter to pay Paul cannibalizing from one airframe to another. The Marines decided they wanted a variation of the F18 to replace it in an all weather attack role. They had this scheme in "saving" money by adopting the F/A18. In reality, there was really no money savings. It was an on paper savings, no actual value.

Same can be said with the P320 adoption. The Berettas in use by the big Army are old and tired. It is either buy new Berettas, or P320s. The Army wanted P320s. I am a huge Beretta fan. But, what the Beretta can and can't do has zero to do with the P320. It's all paper.

Last I heard, SIG was a couple hundred thousand P320's back in the commercial market. Will they take a bump because of the .gov announcements. Yeah, probably. But, how much/many isn't clear.

All of the arguments of this or that makes something better, meh, much of it is subjective. None of my praises/complaints are meant to sell a product. It is just what I observe across a wide range of shooters, and the opinions I draw from experience. The thing that makes the 320 shine to me is that I can get away with more with it than other striker fired options. I still carry a DA/SA gun much of the time.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by jaaron11:
I have a hard time recalling a pistol with less consensus around it than the P320. It's either the greatest striker fired pistol in the world, or it's "meh". Guess I'll just have to buy one and cast my own vote.

I have been a fair broker on the gun, even when I was sponsored by SIG. It's true, there have been some issues with the gun that never should have been. For all out dumb reasons. But, the gun will do things in my hands and in the hands of many of my peers that the others don't seem to do as well. The big thing I notice is the fact that it is tolerant to bad inputs. Where many guns aren't as forgiving, the P320 is.

Most of the issues that the guns had when they were cutting teeth are gone now. It's hard to find an out of the box gun that just doesn't run in the current production stock.

As to the negative opinion of some, well ok. That's about all you can say about it. Some will hang onto myths such as high bore axis, and whatnot to rationalize not liking it. Some just like other stuff, and that is the great times that we live in. Lots of other choices out there. It's hard to fault people for personal preference.

I got burned on compact I couldn't keep running. I'm going to buy another soon and give it another run.

I have one of the first P320's (58A0000xx), and being an older shooter, I have found this pistol is by far, one of the most accurate, forgiving I have ever owned, with no issues to date. And I being the absloute easiest to clean is just a bonus. It may be plastic, but it's pros,in my opinion far outweigh any cons you may want to throw at it. And thanks Jones for for stating you view,which is well respected in this forum.

Already have the P320 fullsize and carry...working on getting a subcompact now! Such fun!