Shot a magazine yesterday through my P320 Carry with newly direct-milled slide and RMR. Irons grouped a little right at about 50' but I was able dial the RMR in pretty much spot on. Indoor range.

Today stopped by the outdoor range and at 25yds this setup was not grouping well for me at all. I mean 12" spread in a 5-shot group with irons from the bench, maybe 8 or 9 inches for the RMR. Sunny day, I'm relatively hydrated, again shooting from a bench.

The groups were pretty evenly "off" in their spread. That is, the center of the groups seem to be relatively zeroed, but the spread is awful.

I observed the RMR dot would make a distinct "jerk" in random directions when the shot broke during dry fire, so much that it was moving about the equivalent of 5 or 6 inches at 25yds. I've shot my P365 with stock iron sights better than this P320 with RMR, and historically I've shot it really well with the old irons, so something has to be off.

Likely culprit is me, I know. I just can't for the life of me think what would cause such a drastic degradation in shooting performance as this P320 has historically been one of if not the best shooting pistol I own. Very frustrating.

Yes I checked the torque on the RMR before zeroing (12 inch-lbs per screw). Yes the sights seem tight in the dovetail (drifted the rear slightly to the left after yesterday's session).

Has anyone experienced anything like this after getting a direct mill for a pistol optic? What might I be doing wrong?

Chasing that dot can be rather frustrating. It’ll come around..

Have you tried shooting it a ranges much closer than 25 yards?

When I first put a RDS (RMR) on a pistol my tight little groups opened way up. I got frustrated and put the pistol up for a bit. My first suggestion would be to move in closer until you tighten up your groups. On iron sights, as your pressing the firearm to the target your eyes transition to the front sight. On a RDS the dot is the front sight. You focus on your target and the dot should appear. There is no shift to the front sight or hunting for the dot. If its not appearing then your presentation is off. You can hide a lot of flaws on iron sights that will be glaring on a RDS. Also, my trigger control went to complete crap the moment I saw the little red dot. I slapped the crap out of the last 1/3 of the trigger as soon as the dot appeared. It took a good deal of practice and a huge serving of humble pie to fix. I found problems in my draw, my trigger prep, and my shooting posture/head position. I’m now faster and more accurate with the RDS and it drastically improved my shooting over irons.

Move in closer and really focus on your trigger control. I did tons of dry fire and drawing from my holster while dry firing. The fact that your dot is jerking all over the place tells me the problem lies in your trigger finger and its manipulation of the trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by CQB60:
Chasing that dot can be rather frustrating. It’ll come around..

Yes, but what of the huge spread with the irons? I've never shot that poorly with irons from a bench at 25yds. Really odd. Great lighting too.

quote:

Originally posted by Nismo:
Have you tried shooting it a ranges much closer than 25 yards?

Yes. Shot it at 50' yesterday to get a rough zero. Way tighter grouping that today at 25yds, even accounting for the increased distance.

I have NOT shot it inside 50', though, as I was just checking the zero. Probably should start closer at first, huh.

quote:

Originally posted by dking271:
...Also, my trigger control went to complete crap the moment I saw the little red dot. I slapped the crap out of the last 1/3 of the trigger as soon as the dot appeared. It took a good deal of practice and a huge serving of humble pie to fix.

This has a ring of truth about it. I bet I'm subconsciously doing weird stuff with my trigger finger now that I'm seeing a dot.

Still though, I can't explain why my shooting with irons was absolutely terrible. I turned the dot completely off and was laser-focused on that front sight to check the zero. Really odd. Does the RMR glass do weird stuff with reference to front sight focus? I'd think not, but I'm at a loss.

Regardless, I see the value in "the dot" and have no intentions of going back. I just need to figure out what my malfunction is.

And for context's sake, I do shoot a fair amount, mostly at work, pistol and rifle, monthly, and generally shoot well, so this is an interesting experience...

That is strange. Usually when the dot is off for me, the irons are right..

quote:

Originally posted by dehughes:

quote:

Originally posted by CQB60:
Chasing that dot can be rather frustrating. It’ll come around..

Yes, but what of the huge spread with the irons? I've never shot that poorly with irons from a bench at 25yds. Really odd. Great lighting too.

Some days on the range once my trigger finger or other aspects go to crap, I find it’s best to pack up and go home. When I don’t, I tend to focus on results instead of the things that make the wanted results happen in the first place.

You're right. The problem is likely you. I don't mean that to be offensive. You're trying something new likely without instruction.

Transitioning from a lifetime of shooting iron sight handguns to shooting a red dot is much harder than most seem to think.

Shooting with iron sights you are dealing with three focal planes: target, front sight, rear sight. We tend to drift focus between all three and settle on the front sight before pressing the trigger and making the shot. Shooting with a pistol RDO doesn't work that way. It's single plane: target.

Number one thing shooting an RDO: Don't look at the dot.

I know. It's hard. Especially if you've shot an Aimpoint on top of a rifle and iron pistol sights your whole life.

Focus on your target. Simply place the blurry unfocused red dot over the target you are focusing on and keep staring at the target as you press the trigger.

Your dot will always bounce around a little as you press the trigger. It's not like iron sights. The dot is extra tiny and sensitive to movement, illuminated and in your face. Iron's move a little too, but it happens so fast and since you're typically dealing with two or three focal planes your brain just doesn't pick it up.

Play at home dry firing briefly as I'm describing (target focused).

Then go to the range and try it.

You'll likely be much happier with your RMR and the gun in general.

...one other thing.

Sight your irons in separately from the RMR.

Sight your RMR in at 10 yards or so without looking at anything to do with the irons. Pretend the irons don't exist.

Hopefully the way your gun is setup the irons co-witness at the very bottom of your RMR window and are totally unobtrusive (I like plain black).

I advise you once they are sighted in to totally forget they exist while using the red dot.

I've been putting together a pistol caliber carbine with palmetto rifle as the base, then replaced most of the palmetto. I got it to the range today. On top, I had a Sig Romeo 5 XDR, with a 2 MOA dot and a 65 MOA circle. I took a box of 100 147g reloads to sight it in.

It took about 20 rounds to get the dot sighted in, which I did initially at 11 yards. Then the 65 MOA circle vanished, never to return. It's just gone. After the 2 MOA dot consistently pinged everything in one spot, I moved the target back to 25 yards, and found the groups were about 3" high. I moved them back down, and they stayed. The circle is still gone.

The Romeo 5 isn't a high end optic by any stretch; this was strictly for fun steel matches, should I ever get the time again. The XDR model is about 120 more than the basic Romeo 5...the difference is the circle, and it runs on a single AAA battery.

Not very impressed, so far.

On the way back from the range, the window regulator broke and the window fell down. It's warm out. So much for the last day at home. One of the only days at home...

Just relating mildly frustrating range day, too.

Good luck with the RMR.

I'm going to throw out a guess....

Finger placement on the trigger.

But then somedays I'm so dense it even amazes me.... year or two back I went to my range and shot three different pistols... all were hitting to the left about 3" at 20 ft.... I actually worked on moving the rear sight on one to try and correct this 'problem'. A day later it dawned on me... not the gun... it was the shooter..... finger not place squarely on the trigger will cause this.

Thanks for the replies, suggestions, and input. I greatly appreciate you all.

Well, I did a bunch of dry-firing just now.

I do observe that at times the slide moves ever so slightly upon release of the striker. I'm assuming this is a result of the tension being released when the sear is released and this tension changing the interface between the slide and the frame rails. I see this change in the dot movement, and notice about 6 times out of 10 it is to the right and sometimes slightly down, but not always. Sometimes it's just straight to the right about twice the diameter of the dot itself.

I also know that in my years of shooting Glocks I've battled the low-and-left phenomenon. Now I'm wondering if I'm giving input into the P320 (SIG flat trigger, BTW) in such a way that I'm observing my compensation for the low left Glock phenomenon but those compensations are not necessary in the SIG and are manifesting in dot movement upon sear/striker release.

Or something is up with my gun, but it'd have to be so messed up (like a drastic change in barrel lockup, etc..) that I find that the least likely option. As in I'm almost completely sure it isn't the issue.

That said, if my issues shooting the P320/RMR combo IS in fact dot panic or some other self-induced oddity, then this is almost like re-learning how to shoot, it's that strange. What gives me pause is that I did not have this same issue with the transition from irons to dot on the AR platform, but rather that transition was very positive, easy, and enjoyable. I still think irons are easier to be accurate with yet the dot is faster to acquire (on a rifle), but the jury is still out on the dot/pistol.

Anyway, I'll shoot it more in the coming weeks, likely in the form of close-in shooting, but until then I'm going to do a lot of dry-firing and watch that dot.

And deep in the corner of my mind, back where some eagle avatar is always lurking, I'm tempted to actually go get a MOS Glock and see how that shoots with the RMR, being as I shoot Glock at work. But then I'd have to admit I finally bought a Glock, and I don't want to come crawling back to that thread with my tail between my legs.

If you don't have a magazine in the pistol, the slide tends to move as you press the trigger. That shouldn't be the case and shouldn't affect the shot, if there's a magazine in place.

The P320 fides on the underside of the rails, rather than the top, and when pressing the trigger, the slide is drawn downward slightly then released up. Just the opposite of what one might think. That's mitigated by the magazine in place.

It isn't the same on an AR platform because we don't have a nice butt-stock to aid in consistent cheek weld and finding the dot. Shooting with a pistol red dot can be easier, but it definitely takes a lot of trigger time to get used to it. I have seen this with the most experienced shooters as well.

I set up a target at station and officers practice acquiring the target picture (with an unloaded gun of course). It takes time. As KevH said, focus on the target. Ignore iron sights, ignore the red dot. Draw and maintain focus on the target, the red dot should just appear when your gun comes up.

It just takes repetition.

Just saw this. I’m thinking this might be my problem...shifting my focus without realizing it... like what you’re saying, Chowser

https://youtu.be/fUejbCKV6wQ

quote:

Originally posted by dehughes:
Shot a magazine yesterday through my P320 Carry with newly direct-milled slide and RMR. Irons grouped a little right at about 50' but I was able dial the RMR in pretty much spot on. Indoor range.

Today stopped by the outdoor range and at 25yds this setup was not grouping well for me at all. I mean 12" spread in a 5-shot group with irons from the bench, maybe 8 or 9 inches for the RMR. Sunny day, I'm relatively hydrated, again shooting from a bench.

The groups were pretty evenly "off" in their spread. That is, the center of the groups seem to be relatively zeroed, but the spread is awful.

I observed the RMR dot would make a distinct "jerk" in random directions when the shot broke during dry fire, so much that it was moving about the equivalent of 5 or 6 inches at 25yds. I've shot my P365 with stock iron sights better than this P320 with RMR, and historically I've shot it really well with the old irons, so something has to be off.

Likely culprit is me, I know. I just can't for the life of me think what would cause such a drastic degradation in shooting performance as this P320 has historically been one of if not the best shooting pistol I own. Very frustrating.

Yes I checked the torque on the RMR before zeroing (12 inch-lbs per screw). Yes the sights seem tight in the dovetail (drifted the rear slightly to the left after yesterday's session).

Has anyone experienced anything like this after getting a direct mill for a pistol optic? What might I be doing wrong?

Check and ensure the optic is not loose.

With that out of the way - Yes It's likely you. Sounds like you are focusing on the dot like it's an iron sight instead of focusing on the target aka "Chasing the dot."

That movement has always been there, you just see it more with the dot.

First try dry fire and shooting with a piece of masking tape over the front lens of the RMR to force yourself to focus on the target.

Second you will need to work in dry fire to reduce that random movement. I would focus on 1) Grip, 2) visual patience, 3) Trigger Control in that order.

Visual patience meaning you decide to fire the gun and having the patience to let the gun move through your natural arc of movement / wobble zone till the shot breaks vs making the gun go off NOW because you think the dot is where you want it aka "the kodak moment."

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
I'm going to throw out a guess....

Finger placement on the trigger.

But then somedays I'm so dense it even amazes me.... year or two back I went to my range and shot three different pistols... all were hitting to the left about 3" at 20 ft.... I actually worked on moving the rear sight on one to try and correct this 'problem'. A day later it dawned on me... not the gun... it was the shooter..... finger not place squarely on the trigger will cause this.

Rigid trigger finger placement as you describe (like that stupid graphic that pops up all the time) is bad info that just won't go away.

The answer is what ever trigger finger placement allows the shooter to pull the trigger straight to the rear. This will vary depending on the gun and the shooter's hand size.

The best description I've heard is what the Army marksmanship unit calls "natural lay of the finger"

Acquire your grip naturally letting your finger naturally fall on the trigger. In dryfire, see is this allows you to pull the trigger straight to the rear. If it does not allow you to pull the trigger straight to the rear, adjust until you can.

For most pistol shooters more trigger finger is better, especially for shooting at speed but there are no absolutes.

For example I wear XXL gloves, as does one of my struggling shooters at work. However I have large hands with proportionately short fingers where as they have small/medium hands with very long fingers. They're gonna sink a lot more trigger finger than I will on the same pistol even though we wear the same size gloves.