Why World Champion Bob Vogel Grips His Handgun The WRONG Way (And It May Be The Best Grip Ever!)
Survival & Preppingby Caleb - Jun 6, 2017 1 176

Do you want to shoot your handgun well?

I mean do you want to shoot it fast?

And do you want to shoot it accurate?

Then, your GRIP is absolutely one of the most important parts of shooting your handgun fast & accurate. That’s why you need to see this!

You Will Never Shoot Your Handgun Fast AND Accurate With A Poor Grip!

Gripping your handgun is so important that I’ve spilled much digital ink on these digital pages about it…

How to grip a handgun to shoot fast & accurate is my classic article about how to … well … grip a handgun to shoot fast & accurate!

In that article, I dispel many myths about gripping the handgun and show you what works for me and the little tips & tricks that I’ve picked up over many hours of training/practice.

On this page, there is a video showing the “classic” thumbs forward grip preferred by almost all modern day shooters.

But today, we’re going to talk about Bob Vogel because he breaks the mold, in every way.

Bob Vogel, One of The World’s Best Handgun Shooters, Grips His Handgun The “WRONG” Way…

Bob grips it the “Vogel” way.

And he’s been very, very successful with it.

From his website:

“… at present Robert is now a 3-time world champion and 23-time national champion across 3 disciplines of practical/combat shooting and has been all over the World competing and teaching. Besides this, he has been a Police Officer for over 13 years. Eight and a half of those years were spent as a full-time street cop while also being a member of the county’s joint-department SWAT team. During that tenure he also served as a firearm instructor for both the department and the SWAT team.“

In the following video from Panteo Productions, Bob breaks down his grip and how it differs from the standard thumbs forward grip:


for more info:
http://preparedgunowners.com/2...-the-best-grip-ever/

I saw this video yesterday actually. Very good, but to say his grip is so different from the current "thumbs forward" is a bit dramatic. The only thing different (unless I'm missing something) is his support hand is a bit higher than normal.

Interesting. I'll give the Vogel grip a shot.

Interesting. There are certain principles that seem absolute. You want to control, and minimize, recoil. You want a clean trigger press-- straight back, without pushing or pulling the trigger. There might be a few more. But the thing is: everybody's hand is different. And not only hand, but your entire upper anatomy: head, neck, shoulders. What Vogel has done, I think, is tailored his grip to achieve the absolutes in a way that suits his anatomy. Jerry Miculek sometimes does some funky things-- like support hand index finger on the front of the trigger guard.

My point is that I think ultimately the best grip is the grip that works best for you. And it's a good idea to try different things to find out what might work best.

Interesting video. Thanks for posting.

I'm not very strong, especially on my support side. It's been very hard for me to 'manage recoil primarily with the support hand' but after some minor tweaking of my grip per the video, even with my relatively weak support hand, the grip feels much more solid.

My strong hand grip was reasonably consistent with the video already but a minor tweak to the support hand seems to make a big difference. Dry firing feels good - quick trigger finger manipulation is possible without moving off target.

I anxious to try it out at the range.

That looks similar to the grip jljones demonstrates in the recently posted video on a controlling grip. Vogel's weak hand looks to be slightly further up and forward than Jerry's.

I was going to try Jerry's grip the next time I shot, as I am using a more traditional Weaver thumbs forward grip. I will likely also try Vogel's, although I do have the meatier hands he mentions, and I am not looking for tracks in the thick of my thumb.

Thanks for posting.

One size does not fit all.

It's not complicated, whatever works best for you is what works best for you.

Tactical Teacup.

This topic reminds me of one of the Top Shot seasons where one of the competitors was not a gun guru or former operator and some of his team mates kept trying to get him to use a "correct" or "more proper" grip. Problem is he shot very well with the grip he was already comfortable with yet they persisted that he was "doing it wrong". Yet every time he tried to use their suggested "correct grip" he shot worse. Using the grip he was comfortable with, he typically shot better than the more experienced shooters with more typically accepted grip methods. I'm in the camp that while there are some established grip norms and techniques to try, gripping a pistol or rifle are a very personal thing within reason. If you can shoot your firearm well the way you are comfortable holding it, then you're using the correct grip for you and that's all that matters.

As for the video, using his words, I would say my grip resembles a hybrid "monkey grip" not the much touted thumbs forward grip, whether shooting pistols or revolvers and it works for me. While I know there are people that shoot better than I do, I have very humbly observed that I am frequently the best shot on the line at the pistol range when I go to practice as compared to the targets I see in the other lanes regardless of technique, age, or gender of the other range goers. Seems my hybrid monkey grip works for me even though I have definitely tried and suggested a variety of grip methods to others, and still do from time to time just to compare and contrast.

Interesting. Thanks for posting.

I don't know about you guys but when I shoot I actually try to avoid the web of my strong hand coming in contact with the rear of the slide

quote:

Originally posted by cas:
One size does not fit all.

It's not complicated, whatever works best for you is what works best for you.

Exactly. Some people may have permanent hand injuries and not be able to grip a certain way. Or, it may just not work for them.

quote:

Originally posted by ArtieS:
That looks similar to the grip jljones demonstrates in the recently posted video on a controlling grip. Vogel's weak hand looks to be slightly further up and forward than Jerry's.

I was going to try Jerry's grip the next time I shot, as I am using a more traditional Weaver thumbs forward grip. I will likely also try Vogel's, although I do have the meatier hands he mentions, and I am not looking for tracks in the thick of my thumb.

Thanks for posting.

I missed that vid post. Tried a search. Could you point me in the right direction to find it?

quote:

Originally posted by cas:
One size does not fit all.

It's not complicated, whatever works best for you is what works best for you.

I generally agree with you. But one point from the video is universally true, I think. Emphasize the weak hand grip in order to leave the strong hand freer for better trigger control. Trigger control, trigger control, trigger control…

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Pipe Smoker,

First off, it is NOT a monkey grip. This term is clearly inaccurate and intended as derogatory. Monkeys do not have opposable thumbs. It is more accurately described as a hammer grip.

Personally, I prefer the hammer grip with the tip of my strong hand thumb touching the tip of my strong hand middle finger, and my support hand thumb actually pressing down my strong hand thumbnail.

I am aware that thumb forwards grip styles are considered better for shooting speed and accuracy. However, in a real world social encounter, I am concerned about more than speed and accuracy. I am concerned about weapons retention, one handed use and not having to shift my strong hand grip, and what comes naturally in a high stress situation.

If I have to use my support hand for something other than grip support, the hammer grip allows me to maintain a firm strong grip on the gun without shifting my grip. The thumbs forward grip simply does not feel secure to me one handed. I can't shoot well thumbs forward one handed. And I don't think I could maintain control of the gun thumbs forward one handed in a retention situation or even if I just got knocked down, or tripped. With the hammer grip, the support hand supports what the strong hand is already doing, and the strong hand does not have to change position at all even if the support hand gets assigned other duties.

So why might I need to use my support hand for something other than support? Fending off a grappling or knife attack. Opening a door. Unlocking a door. Turning on a light. Turning off a light. Holding a flashlight. Carrying something. Holding a child's hand. Providing support to someone injured. Providing support to myself if injured. Holding a ballistic shield. Using a cell phone or other communications device. Waving some one off. Scratching my balls. Picking my nose. Etc.

All of that can be done while maintaining a better one handed grip like a hammer than with a loose thumbs forward.

Additionally, If I need to use the gun like an actual hammer to beat in someone's head, a one handed hammer grip is clearly superior.

Further and perhaps most critically. If you are accustomed to a thumbs forward grip, in a high stress social situation, if you have a revolver, you may push you thumbs forward of the forcing cone. Hot gasses can escape sideways through the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone. This can result in serious injuries particularly with larger calibers.

I want to train and primarily use weapons with the same or similar manual of arms to reduce confusion under stress. This has been discussed multiple times. For the same reason I want a single consistent grip with all my pistols and handguns. Also good with ARs.

Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. I am that little minded hobgoblin.

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:

Was at a renewal class for Maryland's concealed carry permit (Yes we have to take an 8 hour class for renewal and 16 hours for initial permit), one of the guys couldn't hit the paper with the grip the instructor told him to use, he was failing badly but then we started snap draw rapid fire, he pulled out his revolver and held in a Dirty Harry stance and put them all in the black-that's how he learned to shoot and did very well that way. So what ever works. Chris

quote:

Originally posted by Fenris:
...
Personally, I prefer the hammer grip with the tip of my strong hand thumb touching the tip of my strong hand middle finger, and my support hand thumb actually pressing down my strong hand thumbnail.

I am aware that thumb forwards grip styles are considered better for shooting speed and accuracy. However, in a real world social encounter, I am concerned about more than speed and accuracy. I am concerned about weapons retention, one handed use and not having to shift my strong hand grip, and what comes naturally in a high stress situation.

If I have to use my support hand for something other than grip support, the hammer grip allows me to maintain a firm strong grip on the gun without shifting my grip. The thumbs forward grip simply does not feel secure to me one handed. I can't shoot well thumbs forward one handed. And I don't think I could maintain control of the gun thumbs forward one handed in a retention situation or even if I just got knocked down, or tripped. With the hammer grip, the support hand supports what the strong hand is already doing, and the strong hand does not have to change position at all even if the support hand gets assigned other duties.

So why might I need to use my support hand for something other than support? Fending off a grappling or knife attack. Opening a door. Unlocking a door. Turning on a light. Turning off a light. Holding a flashlight. Carrying something. Holding a child's hand. Providing support to someone injured. Providing support to myself if injured. Holding a ballistic shield. Using a cell phone or other communications device. Waving some one off. Scratching my balls. Picking my nose. Etc.

All of that can be done while maintaining a better one handed grip like a hammer than with a loose thumbs forward.

Additionally, If I need to use the gun like an actual hammer to beat in someone's head, a one handed hammer grip is clearly superior.

...

You are compromising your 2-hand grip for an over-thought and non-existent reason IMHO. The one-handed grip does not work the way you describe in practice. It would take an un-natural effort to keep the strong side thumb up and floating in the air shooting one-handed. In the thumbs-forward 2 hand grip, the strong thumb is pushing down on the weak thumb. When the weak hand isn't there, it just pushes down until contacting the frame...in the strong "hammer" grip you are talking about. It happens without thought or any training to make it so. It is just how things are held with one hand.

Good tips.

I agree with you whole-heartedly Fenris. Sounds like you and I have an almost identical grip. I use my support hand to create a shelf and support as much of the bottom of the trigger guard as is reasonable and comfortable for my hand size. I actually don't find it to be a detriment to my speed or accuracy as compared to other grip styles, quite the contrary, at least for me. I'm not out there participating in organized gun games or competitions, at least not for some time now, but I'm perfectly comfortable with how my grip works for me with the practice I put in and the results I get. Hopefully it will never be necessary to find out how it would work in a self defense situation but I'm equally confident it would serve me well.