"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"
May 27, 2020, 09:25 AM
caneau
quote:
Originally posted by DaBigBR: STI changed hands in 2018ish. Any gun made before 2018 is "old" there are some transitional guns (old models with new ownership but pre-Staccato), and then obviously the new stuff has been moving to the Staccato name since then.
I have a transitional STI Tactical 4" and a new Staccato C2. Both are outstanding guns both in fit and finish and performance. There are no MIM parts on them - everything is machined. The critical parts fits are well done. The triggers are very, very good. The current ("Gen 2") magazines are worlds better than anything that predated them. There's a lengthy Primary and Secondary podcast with Buck Pierson from STI where a lot of this, and particularly the magazines, gets addressed.
In the 9mm guns, STI/Staccato has done some playing with barrel and slide lengths. The current Staccato P is a 4.45" gun. Last year's was a 4.15" gun. The user base demands a 5" bushing barrel gun but they (Staccato) feels that they just can't be made reliable enough and the extra slide mass increases cycling time and perceived recoil. There are a couple 9mm 5" guns out there, but they really believe in the intermediate lengths in 9mm.
All of the above said, the gun is still a partially hand-fit 2011. It's not a Glock or an M&P or a 320 or a HiPoint. It's going to need preventative maintenance, it may teeth a bit while you break it in, and it needs to be kept lubricated. If you're willing to put a little minimal effort in, they should serve you well and they're really great shooting guns, particularly with a red dot.
Jones is also right about Staccato doing a good job with the marketing. Part of that is bringing on some high credibility guys like Hilton Yam and Mike Panone. Panone recently ran his Staccato P through ten or twelve thousand rounds of mostly steel case ammo with only periodic lube and no cleaning. Aaron Cowan has recently reviewed the Staccato P and XC with favorable opinions.
Bottom line: if you don't mind putting in some work on your Staccato, it will work for you.
That reinforces what I observed with 5" 9mm 2011s. The slide velocity is slow, and the slide mass is significant. Lightening cuts make sense. Personally I'd love to see something innovative like a titanium slide.
My current 9mm 1911 is a Dan Wesson Valor Commander in 9mm with the Wilson ETM mags. It's a solid combination and generally reliable. I think I've only had one stoppage with some really cheap ammunition. I believe the first 9mm 1911s were designed around the Commander platform probably due to the same core issues with Government variants.
All that said, I'm still curious about what happens when the marketing shine wears off. We've all seen this over and over again with platforms like the M&P, where S&W was basically giving them away for a few years in order to gain market saturation. It was impossible to find a negative review. Now, I can't remember when's the last time I saw one in a duty holster. Same with the XD, the P10c, etc. Seems STI has an influx of capital and is attempting to buy market share. Not a bad thing because it's clear their investing in R&D and taking reliability issues seriously. At the same time, frequent design changes make me wonder if the platform is still having the kinks worked out.
Has anyone tried the new magazines in the pre-2018 guns? Do they work well? Worth getting for the Edge?
__________________________________ An operator is someone who picks up the phone when I dial 0.
May 27, 2020, 10:17 AM
Jim Watson
The STI Gen 2 magazines feed as well in my 9mm Eagle as the much more expensive MBX. But then the Gen 1 magazines do OK, too.
May 27, 2020, 12:51 PM
Revolution37
quote:
Originally posted by caneau: Wow -- 5 armorers to 1 is an incredible cost savings. Total cost to employ an armorer with salary, benefits, training, facilities, tools, etc. is probably around $100,000. Plus I bet they did away with a "supervisor" to manage the work of 5 people. You're probably talking half a million dollars in savings. That's huge for all but maybe 10 of the largest police departments.
That is completely dependent on how much an agency is willing to spend. My agency has 86 sworn and we have at least 3 Glock armorers. At least one of them is also an 870 armorer and an AR15 armorer. We did not invest $100k, or $50k, or even probably $15k into getting that person those three trainings, nor do we have special facilities or an excessive number of tools for the armorers to use. Most places do not, and I’m guessing the places big enough to employ a full time armory staff have them doing other things with their department’s forearms than just replacing extractors on Glocks.
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May our caskets be made of hundred-year oak, and may we plant those trees tomorrow.
May 27, 2020, 09:47 PM
DaBigBR
quote:
Originally posted by caneau:
That reinforces what I observed with 5" 9mm 2011s. The slide velocity is slow, and the slide mass is significant. Lightening cuts make sense. Personally I'd love to see something innovative like a titanium slide.
My current 9mm 1911 is a Dan Wesson Valor Commander in 9mm with the Wilson ETM mags. It's a solid combination and generally reliable. I think I've only had one stoppage with some really cheap ammunition. I believe the first 9mm 1911s were designed around the Commander platform probably due to the same core issues with Government variants.
All that said, I'm still curious about what happens when the marketing shine wears off. We've all seen this over and over again with platforms like the M&P, where S&W was basically giving them away for a few years in order to gain market saturation. It was impossible to find a negative review. Now, I can't remember when's the last time I saw one in a duty holster. Same with the XD, the P10c, etc. Seems STI has an influx of capital and is attempting to buy market share. Not a bad thing because it's clear their investing in R&D and taking reliability issues seriously. At the same time, frequent design changes make me wonder if the platform is still having the kinks worked out.
Has anyone tried the new magazines in the pre-2018 guns? Do they work well? Worth getting for the Edge?
Slide speed is what STI has cited as the issue with the 5" guns. It's counterintuitive to .45 logic where the longer slide is more reliable.
There are two big differences between the Staccato guns and everything else you have listed: they aren't striker fired, and they cost a hell of a lot more. Staccato knows they're a niche product and it's a mistake to compare it to a Glock. They just aren't I'm the same category. That's not good or bad or better or worse, they're just different. You might go the rest of your life and never see a 2011 in a duty holster because they're ultimately not a good gun for everyone and they cost easily four times what a striker gun does. I think if anything, the question is what does the resurgence of the 2011 do to the 1911 market?
The new mags should work fine in any gun that takes 2011 pattern mags. STI changed the way the tubes were made and was able to improve the consistency of them. I have about 15 gen 2 mags and every one of them just works. Hilton Yam put together a good video on the mags.
May 27, 2020, 09:52 PM
Oat_Action_Man
I've found Hilton's whole series on the Staccato line to be very informative, the early episodes especially. That he's not just a shooter and trainer, but also a gunsmith makes it a unique perspective.
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Chuck Norris put the laughter in "manslaughter"
Educating the youth of America, one declension at a time.
May 27, 2020, 11:59 PM
DanH
Aaron Cowan just made a video this week on the Staccato XC:
As for Hilton Yam, he’s got 21 videos on 2011s so I’ll leave the link here:
Originally posted by caneau: Other than going to the range to put holes in paper.
Not “real” use per se but my 2019 P was my off duty gun the second the chief removed the no single action only restriction from what we carried off duty. And was because I’m picking up my C2 in the morning and after a break in period it will replace the P. I already bought a TLR-7A for it.
We’re issued gen4 Glock 31s.
Not minority enough!
May 28, 2020, 08:01 AM
cas
quote:
Originally posted by caneau:
Other than going to the range to put holes in paper.
Isn't that what you're going to do with it probably 99.9% of the time? That sound like the real use to me.
_____________________________________________________ Sliced bread, the greatest thing since the 1911.
May 28, 2020, 08:28 AM
caneau
quote:
Originally posted by cas:
quote:
Originally posted by caneau:
Other than going to the range to put holes in paper.
Isn't that what you're going to do with it probably 99.9% of the time? That sound like the real use to me.
As a product of time, no. I'm at the range a few hours per month at most. A gun will be in my holster for more time than that in a day. So my #1 "real use" would be concealed carry. If I were in law enforcement, tha "real use" would be use in a duty holster.
I also have a much higher tolerance for failures for range-only guns than for something that will be used for defensive purposes, or even competition purposes. Going back to the STI Edge example, it doesn't bother me that much if I get a slide lock failure because of weak mag springs. It would definitely bother me on my Glock 19.
Does that help explain the context of the question?
__________________________________ An operator is someone who picks up the phone when I dial 0.
May 28, 2020, 08:58 AM
Chowser
My P from last year had the stainless mags. I have 5 mags for it and had no issues.
Picked up my C2 today and it has the new teflon? mags? Will run a case of ammo through it this weekend when I return to work. All we have is Winchester 124gr FMJ and Ranger 127 gr +P+.
Not minority enough!
May 28, 2020, 12:13 PM
Kevbo
I had one of the original staccato-p duo with the 4.15’ slide
It was a fantastic gun that ran. The new mags work well, and are much cheaper than the originals (by right about half)
I sold mine on;y because money has been an issue that was further compounded with the economic shit brought on by the ‘rona
My intention was to use it as a home defense gun. I needed to shoot it more before I used that in that role, but only because of my own personal foibles. It had no failures in the time I owned it.
Defensively I don’t think it does it’s job any better than something like a Glock, but that’s just me. But, IMO, the combat accuracy needed for your average CHP carrier or LEO is easily met by good quality defensive handguns (glocks, berettas, sigs, etc). For pinpoint accuracy, sure, a 1911 will probably best a Glock....but you don’t really need it for CHP purposes
That’s a long way of saying: if you can afford it, it’s a great gun and probably appropriate for defensive purposes, but not so much so to justify the cost difference between it and a Glock 17, for example. If you can afford it, have at it, you won’t he disappointed.
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If the meek will inherit the earth, what will happen to us tigers?
May 28, 2020, 01:26 PM
cas
quote:
Originally posted by caneau: As a product of time, no. I'm at the range a few hours per month at most. A gun will be in my holster for more time than that in a day. So my #1 "real use" would be concealed carry. If I were in law enforcement, tha "real use" would be use in a duty holster.
A carry gun you carry around all the time, but you really only use it at the range.
(A duty gun you carry around all the time and occasionally point it at people, but in truth, mathematically, you really only use it at the range.)
But I follow your meaning, if not your choice of verbiage.
_____________________________________________________ Sliced bread, the greatest thing since the 1911.
May 28, 2020, 02:46 PM
Belgian Blue
I’d LOVE to get one, unfortunately all the Staccatos I’ve handled had obscenely poor thumb safeties. To the point that I doubt they’d stay on SAFE in a holster. I’m talking almost no detent at all holding the lever in SAFE or FIRE.
I have no confidence ordering one sight unseen.
May 28, 2020, 03:01 PM
jljones
quote:
Originally posted by cas:
(A duty gun you carry around all the time and occasionally point it at people, but in truth, mathematically, you really only use it at the range.)
"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"
May 28, 2020, 03:43 PM
caneau
quote:
Originally posted by cas:
quote:
Originally posted by caneau: As a product of time, no. I'm at the range a few hours per month at most. A gun will be in my holster for more time than that in a day. So my #1 "real use" would be concealed carry. If I were in law enforcement, tha "real use" would be use in a duty holster.
A carry gun you carry around all the time, but you really only use it at the range.
(A duty gun you carry around all the time and occasionally point it at people, but in truth, mathematically, you really only use it at the range.)
But I follow your meaning, if not your choice of verbiage.
Then give me something better to use
__________________________________ An operator is someone who picks up the phone when I dial 0.
May 28, 2020, 04:08 PM
gordynismo
I read but I did not see it mentioned, not only did they move their guns to the Staccato line, STI changed names and is now Staccato.
