quote:

Originally posted by stoic-one:

quote:

Originally posted by egregore:
Two stupid questions: what is that thing for, and how do you know the metal is MIM?

It's a plate for mounting optics on the Glock MOS line of pistols, each one ships with 4 plates with various hole patterns for different brands of optics.

It's a MIM part, there are no machining marks and you can see the incomplete fill lines from the casting in the lower right corner... The metal itself isn't MIM, that's the manufacturing process (Metal Injection Molding).

I believe this is correct. I cant believe even a filler plate which may well get reused would be made so cheap.

There was a big discussion about MIM over on another board. The fanboys were chanting how good it is and how its actually more expensive than forged parts.

Bullshit. It s a cost cutting measure and increases the manufacturers profit margin. Nothing more. But I guess since their favorite manufacturer stuffs as much MIM as they can into their guns they have to claim its great.

Funny, the biggest fanboy over there use to come here knocking Sigs all the time. Thankfully, he got banned for taking a crap in every P226 thread. But he is still a cheerleader over there!

And the fanboys didnt like it when I pointed out that the Performance Center, back when there really was such a thing, use to point out in their ads that their guns were MIM free. Forged parts only! Amusing, to me. Regards 18DAI

quote:

Originally posted by 18DAI:
There was a big discussion about MIM over on another board. The fanboys were chanting how good it is and how its actually more expensive than forged parts.

Bullshit. It s a cost cutting measure and increases the manufacturers profit margin. Nothing more. But I guess since their favorite manufacturer stuffs as much MIM as they can into their guns they have to claim its great.

Funny, the biggest fanboy over there use to come here knocking Sigs all the time. Thankfully, he got banned for taking a crap in every P226 thread. But he is still a cheerleader over there!

And the fanboys didnt like it when I pointed out that the Performance Center, back when there really was such a thing, use to point out in their ads that their guns were MIM free. Forged parts only! Amusing, to me. Regards 18DAI

Every so often, there's another "big discussion" about MIM on this board, also. You're right in the middle of it, [Justin Wilson]I gua-ron-tee[/Justin Wilson].

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
But all the hysteria about MIM is nonsense and quality MIM is just as good as blah blah blah ....yeah MIM sucks and I don't care what anyone says.

Same. But the cheerleading snowflakes get awfully upset at statements like this.

So, MIM is the "Chicken McNugget" of the world of metalworking?

You know, parts is parts.

Well I called Glock to test the waters on getting a replacement. Told the tech rep what happened, he came back with, "Normally you would just order a new set off the online store, but this time we'll send one out to you. Name?"

Gee, I feel so privileged. At least he agreed to send on out "when we can." (his words). Probably a good thing that I DID order a set already.

quote:

Originally posted by soggy_spinout:
Wanna know what happens when you drop a "steel" Glock MOS plate onto a concrete floor?

It cracks. At least my #2 plate did. Opening up the #$@!%! adapter plate packaging for the first time, two of the plates slipped out and hit the basement slab. One survived, the other (#2) less so. The crack goes all the way through to the bottom side facing away from the camera, but surprisingly the plate didn't shatter in two and is still intact. Hanging on by a thread I guess.

Naturally this is the plate that I'll be needing for my RMR. One of those 'GRR' moments...

That part was already cracked like that from the factory and is a common defect with sintered metal part manufacturing. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it...

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
So, MIM is the "Chicken McNugget" of the world of metalworking?

You know, parts is parts.

Parts is not parts. Forged or billet parts are stronger. MIM = cost reduction, nothing more nothing less.

"Parts is Parts" referred to the tiny particles of formerly chicken-ish origin, mushed together into a single piece.

Like MIM.

Did you ever notice that the MIM defenders are always saying; "MIM is (insert your favorite percentage) the strength of forged parts!". I noticed that.

But I find that forged parts are 100% the strength of forged parts.

BTW, the fanboys got that MIM thread on another board I mentioned locked! Regards 18DAI

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
"Parts is Parts" referred to the tiny particles of formerly chicken-ish origin, mushed together into a single piece.

Like MIM.

Yawn. It's a quote from Fast Times.

just wait until 3D parts are mainstream...

quote:

Originally posted by Prefontaine:

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
"Parts is Parts" referred to the tiny particles of formerly chicken-ish origin, mushed together into a single piece.

Like MIM.

Yawn. It's a quote from Fast Times.

Dude...

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
Every so often, there's another "big discussion" about MIM on this board, also. You're right in the middle of it, [Justin Wilson]I gua-ron-tee[/Justin Wilson].

The last one I remember, some self-proclaimed MIM "expert" swore up and down that there was no such thing as a Sig P228, as no such model is listed in the Sig catalog.

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
But all the hysteria about MIM is nonsense and quality MIM is just as good as blah blah blah ....yeah MIM sucks and I don't care what anyone says.

Quality MIM is still MIM, but it's not that junk Soggy posted.

I've come around on the process myself. It has it's place, done right. It has no place done poorly, and it's not applicable to everything.

Our gun will contain no MIM if we can help it, and you'll love it. I guarantee you will. But: Prepare to be astonished by the price we'll have to ask for it.

Go machine me a couple thousand nice locking inserts for cheap. We can start there.

-Bruce

quote:

Originally posted by Grayguns:

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
But all the hysteria about MIM is nonsense and quality MIM is just as good as blah blah blah ....yeah MIM sucks and I don't care what anyone says.

Quality MIM is still MIM, but it's not that junk Soggy posted.

I've come around on the process myself. It has it's place, done right. It has no place done poorly, and it's not applicable to everything.

Our gun will contain no MIM if we can help it, and you'll love it. I guarantee you will. But: Prepare to be astonished by the price we'll have to ask for it.

Go machine me a couple thousand nice locking inserts for cheap. We can start there.

-Bruce

Respectfully Bruce, a couple thousand locking inserts off a rigid CNC mill is quite doable and affordable, especially if the concern is having to pay a employee wages, which by the way are quite low at most weapons manufacturers here in the US.

I have no skin in the arguement of MIM parts, just a opinion which matters not. However, when enough of the firearm is built cheaply that it causes the customers to walk away, they earn it.

Much the same as long guns of recent make at Gander Mountains' rack, they have many a feature from yester year manufacturing missing. I couldn't get interested in them. The last all stainless Winchester Model 70 in a short magnum chamber went to a friends safe.

I would enjoy your thoughts on what most likely is the issue with the NJSP batch of P229s.

Didn't mean to post of the NJSP pistol topic here. Still, your input is a value.

quote:

Originally posted by Grayguns:

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
But all the hysteria about MIM is nonsense and quality MIM is just as good as blah blah blah ....yeah MIM sucks and I don't care what anyone says.

Quality MIM is still MIM, but it's not that junk Soggy posted.

I've come around on the process myself. It has it's place, done right. It has no place done poorly, and it's not applicable to everything.

Our gun will contain no MIM if we can help it, and you'll love it. I guarantee you will. But: Prepare to be astonished by the price we'll have to ask for it.

Go machine me a couple thousand nice locking inserts for cheap. We can start there.

-Bruce

It doesn't seem that far fetched for a company to build quality no-MIM guns for a decent price. Dan Wesson does it all day long. Perhaps the 1911 market is easier to do so because it's such a mature product but how much more could a 229 cost if it was non-MIM. We all know that gun prices are pretty well inflated. The recent buyers market has shown us that. Online retailers selling guns for 30-35% less then they sold for 2 years ago is common place. I remember when alloy J frame's were considered the premium snubby and sold for $500 new. Now you can find them for $340 all day long. Colts (which have very little MIM) sell for $650+ these days new when they Were $8-900 a few years back. I have no problem paying a respectable $1000-1200 for a quality duty gun with no MIM or plastic. I know all my new Sigs have MIM parts are I trust them. I do hope their Indian made MIM parts hold up. I likely will never know because I have enough guns that I likey will never have a single super high round count gun.

The only part I have ever had fail on a Sig pistol was a milled hammer. Hook snapped right off on my P220. Installed a new hammer (that was MIM) and it's been going bang ever since. People would be amazed at how many parts on their car (even suspension) can be MIM.

There are good good MIM parts, just like there are bad milled parts. The only thing milled usually guarantees is a higher price. I have seen tool steel sears break on 1911's, and 80's era Colt's go ten thousand rounds with a MIM sear. It's all about QC.

You guy are aware that the material for metal injection molding costs approximately 10 times as much as bar stock, right? That is, not cheaper...and finished is typically 99% of design theoretical strength (which is far in excess of required strength in most all cases).

Injection-molded parts are often more repeatable and usually require less fitting. There's a reason that s&w, et al, ended up making many of their highest-stress parts from injection (hammers, triggers, etc) than machining them directly out of bar or forged. Properly done, you can't tell the difference in appearance in most cases from an injection molded finished part, and a part machined from stock.

The "mim" cry bantied around on most all firearm boards is a lemming rant, rather than one based on science. It's also the reason that some manufacturers don't use MIM; it's not because it's inferior. It's because of uninformed beliefs, myths, and rumors.

The crack on the plate on the original part is not a "MIM" issue. A stress crack that passes continuously through two interruptions (the holes) and still a function of incomplete sintering? Not.

Look at the actual base metal used, rather than the process. There is no reason why a properly made injection molded part would fail like that, especially if only dropped a short distance. Clearly the part has a defect, but it's far too easy, and far too incorrect, to lay that on "MIM." To do so is only to express ignorance about the process and what it is, and is not.

sns3guppy, I will take your word on the cost of the material being 10 times greater. I dont see how for small parts but if that is true I accept it. Other materials and the process of making them and, parts of age old quality from them, we have faith in. MIM is pretty new to us and at birth was not good. Its pretty well evolved as Bruce has pointed out to us. People feel and correctly so, why pay extreme prices for products the producer has so little invested in. I for one do not want a product which looks like the product. I would rather have the product as I have known it. What next becomes of the product to further turn the purchaser away? Should a customer support, by purchase, something they have little confidence in?