So I came across this 230 and it peaked my curiosity. It’s got no import marks that I can see, no proof marks, and no date code. The front of the slide seems to have some extra heat treatment. The sights are black, no white dot or line and seem to be taller then a standard 230. The caliber is an odd duck and looks like they were made for the Zurich police but this one didn’t have the police shield/stamp on it. Anyone else come across one of these?

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
It’s got no import marks that I can see

Some gun importers took the extra time and effort to hide their import marks under the grips/stock. This is more common on earlier imports, before they began cracking down on the import marks having to be "conspicuous" and able to be seen during casual handling without requiring any disassembly.


Fiocchi still makes small runs of 9x18 Ultra ammo if you want to shoot one of these. But it's not cheap, at 60+ cents per round for basic FMJ.

Or Graf & Sons sells just brass if you're set up to reload. It uses standard 100ish grain .355 9mm bullets like .380.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
It’s got no import marks that I can see

Sometimes gun importers were nice and spent the extra time and effort to hide their import marks under the grips/stocks.


Fiocchi still makes small runs of 9x18 Ultra ammo if you want to shoot one of these. But it's not cheap, at 60+ cents per round for basic FMJ.

Or Graf & Sons sells just brass if you're set up to reload. It uses standard 100ish grain .355 9mm bullets like .380.

I thought that might be the case. Do you know if these were just sold commercially here in the states? I know the 32ACP Japanese guns didn’t make it here in small numbers.

You might want to consider buying that. They're quite uncommon in the states.

My commercial version in the correct piano-hinge red cardboard box numbered to the pistol, and commercial Walther PP Super in the same caliber.

Remove the slide and there is probably a two letter date code along with proof marks (on left side of barrel where it is pinned to the frame). There may also be another serial number that should match the ones on the right side of the frame and slide.

It slipped my mind to add the following: Some P230 mags have round witness holes (see Para's first pic). Other P230 mags have the elongated open cut out like on HK P9S, Makarov and some other pistols.

Completely stupid question on my part (seeing as how these are all collectible now), but could you just shoot .380 (and .380 +P) out of these if you really had to?

'Oldie but a Goodie' right there! Narrow/fine slide serrations and based on the S/N on the tag, it's likely a 'JK' W.German P230...You should definitely go back for that one!

quote:

Originally posted by MacGyver:
Completely stupid question on my part (seeing as how these are all collectible now), but could you just shoot .380 (and .380 +P) out of these if you really had to?

While they share projectiles, .380 is 9x17mm, compared to 9mm Police/Ultra's 9x18.

Both rounds headspace on the case mouth, so .380's shorter case will not headspace properly in a 9x18mm chamber since it's 1mm too short. It'd be held in place by the extractor and sit inside the chamber but not in contact with the barrel, which is not a recipe for success, and depending on extractor tension it may not even allow for the firing pin to reliably activate the primer.

Even aside from headspace, it's a blowback action, and a slide sprung for the stouter 9mm Ultra may not cycle properly with the lower powered .380 round.

It's be similar to firing .40 S&W in a 10mm handgun, or .380 in a 9mm Parabellum gun.

Would it blow up and hurt you if you tried it? No, but...

Will it damage your gun? Potentially, if done repeatedly. It's certainly going to foul the chamber, erode the throat of the barrel, and wear the extractor more rapidly.

Is it going to be reliable? Probably not.

So is it a good idea? Not really.


At the police academy where I taught, despite us specifically and repeatedly warning about it, it was about an annual occurrence for some dumbass new cadet during the first week of firearms training to load their .40 caliber Glock's magazines up with 9mm ammo. They'd get to the firing line, where they'd go *bang* tap/rack *bang* tap/rack... "Sir, I think my gun's broken, it's not cycling properly!"

Sure enough, at their feet they'd have a few pieces of spent 9mm brass with the mouths expanded out to 10mm diameter. The .40 magazines would feed the 9mm rounds, and the Glock extractors were stout enough to hold the smaller round against the breechface and allow the strikers to ignite the primers, but accuracy was poor and they wouldn't cycle properly.

So likewise, nothing catastrophic, but not something I'd make a habit of doing purposely.

I have one as well. I've had good luck using the magazines from a .380 version but some report a problem doing that.

I , like Para, would encourage you to buy it if you are so inclined. A rare bird and ammo is available , off and on.

If you do I'll karma you a couple of boxes, as I have a good stash.

Is this not the same as 9mm Makarov? That is a 9x18.

quote:

Originally posted by egregore:
Is this not the same as 9mm Makarov? That is a 9x18.

No, not the same. Different pistol calibers with different bullet diameter (.355/9.01mm vs. .365/9.27mm) and different case dimensions.

But nominally both 9mm in diameter and 18mm in case length, so both are described as 9x18mm, despite being distinct calibers and not interchangeable.

Not the only ones to have that either. For example, 9mm Largo, 9mm Winchester, and 9mm Steyr are all nominally 9x23mm, despite being three distinct pistol calibers.

.
The origin of the 9x18mm Police cartridge- the 8x21mm and 9x18mm Ultra cartridges

^^^Great thread.

Another question for you guys then: would the 9mm Ultra P230 be the only variant in the entire P230/P232 family that has a carbon steel frame?

Toolroom stuff when the pistol was in the development stage, or so I hear, but no production offerings.

Wow thanks for the responses! I saw it at a gun shop in Waco but I’m heading back to NC at 6am. I will see if it’s still there on my next trip in a couple of weeks.

I wonder if the difference in color at the muzzle is someone's attempt to hide holster wear with some re-bluing. It would be impossible to match when done partially like that.

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
Wow thanks for the responses! I saw it at a gun shop in Waco but I’m heading back to NC at 6am. I will see if it’s still there on my next trip in a couple of weeks.

I bet the shop owner would let you put a deposit on it to keep it out of the case for a couple weeks. I'm only 15 minutes from Waco, so If you wanted me to go get more specifics or pics for you, just say the word.

quote:

Originally posted by Nick:

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:
Wow thanks for the responses! I saw it at a gun shop in Waco but I’m heading back to NC at 6am. I will see if it’s still there on my next trip in a couple of weeks.

I bet the shop owner would let you put a deposit on it to keep it out of the case for a couple weeks. I'm only 15 minutes from Waco, so If you wanted me to go get more specifics or pics for you, just say the word.

Thanks for the offer! I spent $11,000 in HK’s in the last month so I’m still debating my life choices lol. The guy behind the counter told me it’s been there a very long time. If it had a box or second mag it would be a no brainer. It will be a collector piece that I likely won’t ever fire (Sig 230/232’w draw more blood from me than a phlebotomist.) I’m still mulling it over.