quote:

Originally posted by black1970:
The way that the level of quality is going these days is truly sad. I find on most gun forums that many new guns, especially handguns have to be returned to the factory for some reason or another. What has caused this? Could it be that the gun makers have to make more guns in less time aka cookie cutter production? Way too many pistols have to be sent back for repair because in my opinion they were built by kids just out of trade school (read that they work cheaper) and the manufactures have gotton rid of the old-time craftsmen that we're proud of their work and put their heart and souls into it. Also the bottom line has replaced much of the quality that used to come out of factories such as Smith and Wesson. Could it be that the value of West German Sigs and pre-lock Smith's has gone through the roof because of better quality than what is coming down the pike now? Oh sure the new ones will shoot and go bang but for how long? I will keep my old school Sigs and Smiths, you guys can have the rest of the junk. JM2CW

History and progress have a lot to do with this. Quality can still be found, and let's not pretend that the past isn't awash in forgettable garbage firearms we don't see through our rose colored glasses when we look at the past. Of course there are older model guns that are hand fitted and high quality, that's the way they had to do it. A Mauser Broomhandle or Luger for example.

The past is no more full of excellent guns than the present is devoid of them. Time marches on, and we can be glad that firearms have impressive longevity if cared for. As well, that some models like the P210 and even the 1911, remain in production.

Can we lament that the Python isn't what it used to be? Perhaps, because it's true. But the idea that guns being made now are as a whole of poor quality or will not last, is simply not true. These guns will be around long after we're all dead of old age.

I leave my Sigs stock! My CZs however have many Cajun parts, and they do run better. My Glock are factory internal with the only mods on the trigger guard, sights and Talon grips. These are mine and it what works for me.

quote:

Originally posted by cas:
All this talk of engineers, you seem to be forgetting about the accountants and the lawyers who also determine the final product that comes off the factory floor.

Not to mention intended end users. That entity (in this example I'm about to reference, the Army) was why stupid thumb safeties were grafted into otherwise perfectly fine Gen5 Glocks. If an agency wanted to spec a 14lb. trigger in their next sidearm, you can bet the companies lusting after that contract will be more than happy to oblige, whether in an existing design or a brand new one.

As for me, I had no problem or guilt changing out the mainspring on my P6 with its gawd-awful-heavy DA pull. Or on other SIGs, switch out those sonofabitch nasty snapping short reach trigger shoes to the older heavy bows, preferably full solid. I will make changes to firearms when I deem them to be a necessary thing. And likewise say screw 'em to those who are unable to understand the reasons behind those modifications. It's as plain and simple as that.

I come home from work to see my thread back on track, thanks!

As a corollary to my 'content with leaving it box stock' title, and after reading a bunch of interesting posts, I'll emphasize again that my primary concern is that the dadburned gun fires without fail. I readily acknowledge that when it comes from the factory it may come with a trigger pull that many find unacceptably heavy...same for the plastic recoil spring guide rod. While the engineers may claim that the plastic guide rod is 'self-lubricating and the evidence shows that it will last as long as the metal rod', or whatever, I get it that it's a cost-weight-/cutting measure.

I come from a family of engineers. Let's just say that there's the family joke that a committee of engineers was asked to design the perfect mouse and came up with an elephant...and the bumblebee shouldn't be able to fly, etc. Engineers are not infallible, but they're indispensable. And I will be so bold as to state that there are not as many Bruce Grays out there as we would like that can improve on an already carefully-engineered weapon. Unfortunately, I found this out myself at great expense.

Thus, the title of my thread.

quote:

Originally posted by p226n:
And I will be so bold as to state that there are not as many Bruce Grays out there as we would like that can improve on an already carefully-engineered weapon. Unfortunately, I found this out myself at great expense.

Thus, the title of my thread.

My first carry gun experience was the opposite. The gun was "perfect" on paper. Para Ord P-13. Commander size 1911 with allow frame, 13rd magazines of .45 ACP to make JMB proud! Bone stock, not reliable. Had a smith do an action job...still couldn't trust it, jammed every mag or two, eventually ditched it.

Now, all these years later I understand it is just a crappy design and method, taking a proven 5" single stack 1911 and making it try to be a 4" double stack. Those engineers sucked!

My next carry gun was a Kahr K9. Great gun, carried it for many, many years, still have it, still bone stock. Oh, there were things I wanted to do to it, really just wood grips and knock the sharp edges off it. Maybe stipple the front strap...never bothered, it is just a solid gun. Justin Moon was brilliant in his K-9 design IMHO.

My W. German P226 went to GGI for a duty/carry action and trigger job, short reset mod (pre Sig SRT) and sights. I still have her and it now has a P-SAIT trigger and Trijicon HDs, it is a heck of a shooter.

quote:

so after numerous suboptimal experiences of attempting to improve on the manufacturer's engineers' design

quote:

I've spent thousands on various mods to various weapons with underwhelming results.

quote:

I have spent large amounts of money, for instance, with a nationally known 'smith who essentially ruined a brand new Combat Commander many years ago.

quote:

Unfortunately, I found this out myself at great expense.

quote:

Thus, the title of my thread

This is a little more accurate, I think.

Everything else is trolling, especially considering you contradict yourself.

Alright, yes well 'snake' (you must be one really badass ninja, 'snake'), I've had about enough of the thread-nanny warriors like you. Thankfully, others seem to be more interested in actually posting some USEFUL INFORMATION than spending the better part of their evening copying, pasting and waxing assholian on my comments.

Just so you know.

I rest my case.

And just because you are being such a jerk, and because my youngest son is in Navy SO training as we speak, may I ask, Mr. 'opspectraining.com' with the tag "It pays to be a winner", what EXACTLY are your ninja bonafides, sir?

If you want to go offline, I would be happy to. Otherwise, 'snake', why not just get the smallest resemblance of a life and leave my thread.

And by the way, you keep editing your post.

Say what you mean and mean what you say.

Interesting thread.... Glad I skipped out on this one.