I guess I’m looking for feel etc. not the internals. Is it revolver type? Like the dao?

You how the DA on a DA/SA is usually terrible? DAO is just that but without SA capability.
DAK feels like a tuned revolver.

I think if people could have tried one out 12 years ago they would have been far more popular. I only know I like it because I got 220 DAK for $379 as sort of a "why not?" auction bid.

Tuned revolver. I can relate to that. Thank you

Lots of folks here really talked up the DAK trigger ... I 'accidentally bought a P239 in DAK and I have to say so far I'm not a fan... it is a long smooth double action pull and I can't see the benefit of the two reset positions... the different between the first reset and the second on is probably 1/8th of an inch.

edit: I just checked both my p239's, one in SA/DA and the other in DAK... the DAK trigger does seem to be slightly lighter than the SA/DA one in DA.
So, I think at least from my limited experience with just these two, if I was going to go with a Double Action only pistol I would prefer a DAK.

Both old style DAO and DAK are double action only triggers in that each pull of the trigger is rather long and heavier than a good single action pull. “Double action” means that two things happen before the hammer or striker moves forward to fire the cartridge: the first is that the mainspring is compressed by the rotation of the hammer (if the gun has a hammer), and second the hammer is released to strike the firing pin.

Both DAO and DAK operate that way, just like the double action pull of a DA/SA Classic line SIG, or like countless revolvers such as most Colts and Smith and Wessons.

The primary difference between old SIG DAO and DAK is that the DAK mechanism reduces the pull weight by increasing the mechanical advantage of the system when the trigger is pulled. The DAK mechanism also includes a feature that permits resetting the trigger before it returns all the way forward to its normal rest position. The reset of the DAO doesn’t have that, and therefore its reset point is longer than the short reset point of the DAK. One of the complaints about the original DAO trigger was its long reset, and the DAK addresses that to a degree.

Now while trying to avoid my rant mode about … ignorant remarks, I will just point out that the short reset of the DAK is an optional feature. “Optional” means that the shooter can use it or not as desired. “As desired” means we’re not required to use it. And by “not required,” that means no one is forcing us to use it; we can use it or not with no penalties or fear that the DAK police will show up at our house at oh-dark thirty to take us to a reeducation camp. Don’t like it or it’s too difficult to understand how to use? Don’t use it. Ignore it. Leave it alone, and it will leave us alone.

Many of us DAK shooters, however, do use the short reset routinely and most of us don’t even notice the slightly heavier trigger pull weight that results from using it in rapid fire strings. But did I mention that we don’t have to use it?

I like my DAK. It's a very refined DAO system. Very safe and has the ability to burn a lot of ammo with accuracy. The explanation of the difference between The DAK and a simple DAO given by Sigfreund above, is spot on.

DAK stands for Double Action Kellerman, after the man that invented the system. The whole point of DAK is that there are two different trigger reset points - thus two different lengths of pull. It takes a lot of practice to get acclimated to the trigger and being able to feel the reset points and make a conscious decision as to which to use, especially under stress. I've spoken with the firearms trainer of the Phila DA's office (they are equipped withP229's with the DAK system) and he told me that, once acclimated, it is just a matter of muscle memory.

So, why two different reset points and what's the advantage? If you are close-up and personal and rate (quantity) of fire is the primary concern, as opposed to accuracy (quality), you use the shorter reset point - less distance to cycle the trigger = faster rate of fire. Downside of that position is that with the shorter reset, you have less leverage on the trigger linkage so your weight of pull is higher.

For aimed accurate/non-hurried fire, use the longer reset and you get a lighter pull (longer reset = more leverage, less weight). There is approximately 1.5# - 2# difference in the weight of pull between the two reset points. In a stressful situation, you probably won't notice the difference.

The hammer always works from the partially cocked (hammer intercept notch) position, except in the case of a misfire, where the hammer will be all the way down, since the slide didn't cycle.

You can demonstrate the two different reset points with an empty gun. Pull the trigger (after checking to make sure that it is unloaded, of course) and hold the trigger to the rear of the trigger guard. Cycle the slide manually, with the other hand, and then slowly release the trigger. You will hear a distinct click at the first reset point. If you continue to release the trigger, you will hear a click for the second reset. Repeat the exercise, but don't go to the second reset, just pull the trigger again after the first reset point is heard/felt. Repeat but let it go to the second before pulling again (don't forget you have to manually cycle the slide between trigger pulls) - now you have felt the difference in the trigger pulls caused by the DAK system.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

Some of us find that the longer movement of the double action stroke provides useful feedback during the process and therefore improves our practical accuracy with guns like DAK SIGs. And I prefer not only the longer stroke, but also the heavier pull weight of the short trigger reset. As a consequence, when I am striving for maximum accuracy, as when trying to shoot a small demonstration group, I use the short reset for my shots (except, of course, for the first shot in a string).

It’s an article of faith that a good single action trigger pull is better for practical accuracy, but in addition to what I have found about myself, I once conducted an experiment with several members of my agency and their issued DA/SA P220s. I had them fire careful groups, either all single action or double action. The result? Despite their expectations, everyone’s DA groups were smaller.

Like many things pertaining to shooting, what we’re taught and expected to do make significant differences in the outcomes. If someone is taught that the DAK short reset serves no purpose and should be avoided, we shouldn’t be surprised that that’s what he will believe and act on. If, however, people like my students are taught the opposite, that’s what they believe and do.

The DAK trigger is moribund, and even the DA/SA system is dying. It’s immaterial therefore what anyone thinks of it except for their own purposes. But some people are nevertheless still interested, and much of what is said about the system is based on lack of personal experience and hearsay.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Both old style DAO and DAK are double action only triggers in that each pull of the trigger is rather long and heavier than a good single action pull. “Double action” means that two things happen before the hammer or striker moves forward to fire the cartridge: the first is that the mainspring is compressed by the rotation of the hammer (if the gun has a hammer), and second the hammer is released to strike the firing pin.

Both DAO and DAK operate that way, just like the double action pull of a DA/SA Classic line SIG, or like countless revolvers such as most Colts and Smith and Wessons.

The primary difference between old SIG DAO and DAK is that the DAK mechanism reduces the pull weight by increasing the mechanical advantage of the system when the trigger is pulled. The DAK mechanism also includes a feature that permits resetting the trigger before it returns all the way forward to its normal rest position. The reset of the DAO doesn’t have that, and therefore its reset point is longer than the short reset point of the DAK. One of the complaints about the original DAO trigger was its long reset, and the DAK addresses that to a degree.

Now while trying to avoid my rant mode about … ignorant remarks, I will just point out that the short reset of the DAK is an optional feature. “Optional” means that the shooter can use it or not as desired. “As desired” means we’re not required to use it. And by “not required,” that means no one is forcing us to use it; we can use it or not with no penalties or fear that the DAK police will show up at our house at oh-dark thirty to take us to a reeducation camp. Don’t like it or it’s too difficult to understand how to use? Don’t use it. Ignore it. Leave it alone, and it will leave us alone.

Many of us DAK shooters, however, do use the short reset routinely and most of us don’t even notice the slightly heavier trigger pull weight that results from using it in rapid fire strings. But did I mention that we don’t have to use it?

I thought I was crazy for preferring the shorter heavier pull of the DAK trigger in my 239. is there any way to lighten it up by a pound or 2?

There’s a lot to digest here. I’m used to the dao of a revolver and dao of the 226 I like the da/sa but remembering to decock before holstering can be an issue after a stressful situation. A 6.5 lb trigger sounds pretty doable almost like a Glock.

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
Lots of folks here really talked up the DAK trigger ... I 'accidentally bought a P239 in DAK and I have to say so far I'm not a fan... it is a long smooth double action pull and I can't see the benefit of the two reset positions... the different between the first reset and the second on is probably 1/8th of an inch.

edit: I just checked both my p239's, one in SA/DA and the other in DAK... the DAK trigger does seem to be slightly lighter than the SA/DA one in DA.
So, I think at least from my limited experience with just these two, if I was going to go with a Double Action only pistol I would prefer a DAK.

The P-239 benefits the least from the DAK because of the geometry of the parts. I had a 9mm DAK 239, and I have a DA/SA .357 239, the 357s DA was about the same as the DAK in the 9mm. Take a P-220 or 226, and it is dramatically different. I had a 229 DAK that had one of the best triggers of any pistol I've ever had, I then stupidly sold it.

I will say that I have a 229 DAK in .40sw/.357sig as well as a 220DAK in.45acp. I have found that they are both extremely accurate. The trigger is definelty different than my standard DA/SA or my 226SAO, but not crazy different. I will say that I remember my first range trip with the 220 I was quite surprised when the hammer dropped. I have had great groups with that and subsequent range trips. I find when carrying concealed with a DAK I am quite confident in my ability to hit my target if need be.

The dao trigger on the 226 I used for work was heavy to say the least. What I did like about it compared to the dasa is the consistency. I’m of the mindset that the dak will give me a little of both worlds. The consistency of the dao with less pull weight.
Maybe like a Glock trigger but better

quote:

Originally posted by whisky22:
the DAK trigger in my 239. is there any way to lighten it up by a pound or 2?

One of the gunsmiths that specialize in SIG handguns might be able to help some, but finding someone who wants to deal with the DAK system these days might be difficult.

The most obvious thing for the individual to try is a less powerful mainspring. If the gun is used for serious purposes, though, I would be diligent in testing the result with my preferred carry ammunition. In the larger models (P226, P229 …) the DAK mechanism doesn’t compress the mainspring as much before releasing the hammer to fire, and that’s evidently why the red paint spring was introduced. It’s more powerful than the original spring used in DA/SA pistols, and I believe that’s because the original didn’t always ignite some ammunition with harder primers.

I never examined the P239 DAK as closely, but I do know that its trigger mechanism is somewhat different than that of the larger models because there is less room inside the gun. The P239 DAK doesn’t use a red mainspring, and in fact I believe it’s the same as the long mainspring P220. That may be an indication that a lighter spring would pose less of a risk of light strike misfires.

Other things I know have been done to lighten the DA pull of SIG Classic line pistols without reducing mainspring power are to polish the hammer strut and the inside of the mainspring. I doubt that polishing parts will have any great effect, but I could be wrong. IIRC, at one time Grayguns offered a lighter power safety lock spring that reduced the force necessary to compress it and thereby reduced the DA pull somewhat, but I don’t see it on their site any longer. In any event, it wouldn’t hurt to call them or another ’smith to see what they might be able to do.

My m11a1 has the aep trigger and it’s pretty good. I went to the local sig distributor and tried a legion trigger and dak trigger. The legion trigger reminds me of the aep trigger pull and the dak is really very nice compared to the dao I had before. Reminds me of the dao beretta and a little of the Glock but more responsive