I'm looking at saving up for a P-01 or CZ 75-D PCR. I had a guy tell me the frame will crack after 1000 rounds. I doubt that but...

Does anyone have one that has a high round count? Will they last over time?

Is that guy a LGS clerk? Did his personal gun's frame crack? Or, did he read it on the internet? Bon jour.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
Is that guy a LGS clerk? Did his personal gun's frame crack? Or, did he read it on the internet? Bon jour.

Was a guy at a local gun store.

The P01 IIRC was tested to 15,000 rounds of +P ammo. So figure a service life of 2x-3x that with standard pressure and plinking stuff

That being said aluminum will not stand up to the round counts steel or polymer with steel inserts will. The P01 and PCR were designed for police and military service so they should be fairly robust.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
That being said aluminum will not stand up to the round counts steel or polymer with steel inserts will.

Is that true? Is there a study that gives details?

Studies aren't needed, it is a function of the stress/strain curves of the different metals. Unless you exceed the limits on steel, it returns to the original position on the curve. Aluminum, however, doesn't return to its original position on its stress/strain curve, it loses a little bit of margin every time it is subjected to a stress. Not a lot, but enough that it eventually fails after a few thousand cycles.

Polymers functionally are similar to steel, but for a different reason, because a polymer isn't a crystalline material.

I doubt you will shoot a pcr or p01 enough to wear out the frame or cause cracking. The primary points of failure on the p01 and pcr are the trigger return springs and wear to the firing pin roll pin from dry firing (don't dry fire czs without a snap cap or rubber grommet in between the hammer and firing pin). Slide stops also need to be replaced every 10k rounds or so.

I want my PCR back. (It's a long story, which means I don't want to tell it.) Unlike some SIGs that can actually chew up rails, I never saw any wear on its rails, not even burnishing. I probably had ~2000 rounds of mostly standard pressure, some NATO, through it, so admittedly it wasn't a high round count.

quote:

I had a guy tell me the frame will crack after 1000 rounds.

I could walk behind the Budweiser Clydesdales and not see a bigger pile of horse shit than that. A "guy at the gun store" said this? Figures.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
The P01 IIRC was tested to 15,000 rounds of +P ammo.

It was quite extensively tested. Fifteen thousand rounds of ammo is, at a minimum, about $1500. You could buy two P-01s for that.

quote:

Originally posted by Nuclear:
Studies aren't needed, it is a function of the stress/strain curves of the different metals. Unless you exceed the limits on steel, it returns to the original position on the curve. Aluminum, however, doesn't return to its original position on its stress/strain curve, it loses a little bit of margin every time it is subjected to a stress. Not a lot, but enough that it eventually fails after a few thousand cycles.

Polymers functionally are similar to steel, but for a different reason, because a polymer isn't a crystalline material.

Excellent point on the stress strain curve. I'd personally be careful about giving a "catch all" statement that it will fail after a "few thousand cycles". If the stress is low, aluminum will last into the millions of cycles.

quote:

Originally posted by bcjwriter:
I'm looking at saving up for a P-01 or CZ 75-D PCR. I had a guy tell me the frame will crack after 1000 rounds. I doubt that but...

Does anyone have one that has a high round count? Will they last over time?

Look up P-01 testing by Czech National Police (CNP).
There are numerous articles about testing of the P-01 and how it exceeded the requirements.

Although the pistol has (had?) a National Stock Number I have never seen any test results for NATO acceptance, only those of the CNP.

Granted this is a CZ press release from 2003, so give it whatever weight you think it deserves. But it does provide some testing information:

http://cz-usa.com/press-releas...-of-perfect-pistols/

The Beretta 92/M9 has an aluminum frame, and the Beretta website states "it consistently fires over 35,000 rounds of commercial ammunition before a failure."

http://www.beretta.com/en-us/m9/

quote:

Originally posted by Palm:
Granted this is a CZ press release from 2003, so give it whatever weight you think it deserves. But it does provide some testing information:

http://cz-usa.com/press-releas...-of-perfect-pistols/

If that link is in reference to my post above yours, that article like many others, mentions NATO acceptance BUT references the Czech Police testing.
It is just an example of the marketing department working at it's finest.

I have a CZ75, and a Witness Limited, and both have probably 3 to 4 thousand rds through them and no issues.
My friend Kenny has CZ75's that he has built into 1 Limited gun and 1 Open gun and he's been shooting the two in matches for at least the 10 years I've known him. He shoots hot handloads and his guns are fine.
I wouldn't worry about it.

Oh Lord, why do folks worry about this stuff? Not knocking your question, but this topic comes up periodically. The guy that told you that was an ignoramus. At least in regard to modern aluminum alloy frames.

The frame integrity will last longer than you. After you're dead, the pistol can be buried with you. The frame will not rust, but there will be a problem with some of the steel components.

This kind of aluminum stuff has been kicking around since the 1960-70's when aluminum started to become popular as a frame material. The Colt LW Cmdr came out in 1950, the S&W M39 in 1955. Probably a bunch of others I'm not aware of. My 1995 P229 .40 has over 47,000 rounds through it. I don't know how many my own LW Cmdr has. Bought it in 1985 and it has a lot of rounds through it. Presumably, gun manufacturers and metallurgists have learned a thing or two over the past 67 years.

ANECDOTE:

In the late 1990's I participated in some T&E (test & evaluation) with a gun writer friend and our defensive shooting group. He was testing some Charles Daly 1911's for an article he was writing. When one of the guns (1911 GM stainless steel) was benched after the first three shooters (six mags), I noticed something odd. Under the ejection port there was a vertical mark I figured was powder residue. Wrong - the frame had a 1/2" vertical crack. I never concluded that SS frames would only last for 42 rounds.

quote:

Originally posted by HKAngusKL:
ISlide stops also need to be replaced every 10k rounds or so.

Or, sooner. I lose count after a couple thousand and the slide stop breaks on me during a match.

Good question. Not sure it would last as long as a SIG would with the anodized frame and steel locking insert, which have been known to go past 100,000 rounds if well maintained, but still I bet it would still cost several thousand dollars worth of ammo to try and wear out. No way would I expect a problem at 1000 rounds. Like with any other pistol keep it lubed properly and change recoil spring within manufacturers recommendation.

I have only one CZ and it is a steel frame but I would not hesitate to buy a P01 or PCR if I was so inclined as they are sweet shooting pistols.

Another theory: the guy behind the counter was probably told by his boss that he couldn't buy it until it sat unsold for a week. And now he's trying his best to see that this 'week' happens.

P-01s are solid guns. One of only two handguns ever to actually pass NATO's pistol testing (the other is the G17).

The only "danger" I've heard of with the aluminum frame CZs is from people putting in steel guide rods. It seems that CZ recommends people use either the factory plastic or an aluminum guide rod to avoid damage.

A quick cellphone pic of my 2003 P-01.
Although I haven't kept a precise round count, I can state with certainty that it has well over 1000 rounds through it.



There is only some very light polishing showing in the area of the locking block.
All else is like it was when I bought it new.
Reflections and flash may make it look otherwise, however.
Even the grayish metal treatment on the barrel that CZ states NOT to take off (although many do polish it off) is relatively untouched.

Also, when taking these photos, I noted the plastic guide rod had gotten a bend in it.
I put it in a cup of water and microwaved it for 2 minutes (same as I do with the Kadet rod).
After cool off it came out as straight as when it left the factory.