I’m thinking specifically about models where basically the same pistol is available in two configurations like the P365 and P365XL(I realize the capacity changes also).

In the past I generally favored slightly longer barrel/slide combinations due to increased sight radius. While there is still going to be a slight velocity advantage with the longer barrel, it comes at the price of concealability and comfort.

Is the trade off still worth it?

Just look at the popularity of the G19/19X and M18 over more full sized service pistols. Pistols still have to be long enough to mount an effective (for role) weapon light.

I’ll say my last two pistols I have purchased are the G43xMOS and the G20.5MOS. The 43x I wanted for the shorter barrel for use with a red dot. The TLR7SUB kind of negates the shorter length, but hopefully a shorter light get released. My G20 has an ACRO and X300turbo, intended to be open carried in a Safariland holster.

Depends how short you go. At least for 9mm, once you're at 4 inches or over you aren't gaining much in the way of ballistics. With an RDS, at that point it's whatever is most comfortable to the shooter.

Going shorter than that can run you into problems using older hollowpoint designs, but for duty carry (unless you're plain clothes) I don't think we're getting to that point.

quote:

Is the trade off still worth it?

For me it is. At distances much greater than 25 yards the dot allows me to make accurate shots with a 3.5 inch barrel.

As you get below 4", you are giving up velocity. 3.6-3.7" isn't bad, <3.5" is worse. Given that 9mm depends on velocity to work well, I'd try and stay at or over 3.5". Also, putting an RDS on a gun largely renders it unpocketable. So likely that gun would be holster carried. Barrel/overall length is the least problematic dimension for a holster gun, so going with really short barrel is not particularly advantageous. And the added length translated to the holster helps stabilize and IWB holster.

But yes, an RDS renders sight radius largely irrelevant.

quote:

Originally posted by DanH:
Depends how short you go. At least for 9mm, once you're at 4 inches or over you aren't gaining much in the way of ballistics. With an RDS, at that point it's whatever is most comfortable to the shooter.

Going shorter than that can run you into problems using older hollowpoint designs, but for duty carry (unless you're plain clothes) I don't think we're getting to that point.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BBMW,

FWIW, it works the other way around for me - red dot sights make shorter-barreled pistols more interesting to me since they make sight radius irrelevant.

I don't see the correlation and I have no desire for a pistol with a full-length grip and a stubby barrel. Furthermore, I think the move towards a dependency on electronic sighting devices on handguns is foolishness and may come back to bite someone at the worst possible time, with a system failure, and if you don't think it can happen, you are fooling yourself.

Putting fucking serrations all over slides, increasing the cost of manufacture by cutting slides for these damn electronic tumors, mounting electronic sights on pocket pistols! Jesus I wish manufacturers would cut it out.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
I don't see the correlation and I have no desire for a pistol with a full-length grip and a stubby barrel.

I'm with you on that one. I've always hated the appearance and concept of the "Commander" configuration. The slide and frame should be balanced.

A friend was just today leaning toward a G45 MOS with short barrel and long butt for the purpose of red dotting.

I have seen a couple of well practiced shooters keep going after a dot failure. Framing the target in the empty window works pretty well at typical shootout ranges.

I’ve always preferred pistols in the “compact” G19ish realm dots or not. Remember shooting isn’t simply about your whiz bang sighting system….yet. You still have to have trigger and recoil control/pistol handling skills and the smaller you go the more work this becomes. MRDS may aid in this regard but shooting a micro sized auto pistol still requires a toll to be paid to mamma physics.

I'm all over shorter barrels within reason. I'm not all over shorter grips. Once upon a time to get sight radius I used things like a G34 or a 17L. No point when running an RMR. So to me things like a G45 are the new balance point.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Watson:
A friend was just today leaning toward a G45 MOS with short barrel and long butt for the purpose of red dotting.

I have seen a couple of well practiced shooters keep going after a dot failure. Framing the target in the empty window works pretty well at typical shootout ranges.

And unless you're competition shooting, there's a very good chance that someone has back up iron sights incase of a dot failure.

For me I don't see the purpose of a super short barrel unless it's a pocket carry gun and then a rds is irrelevant. It's more of a body type issue for me but a short barrel pistol is uncomfortable to carry IWB which is how I typically carry. The mass of the gun sits directly under the belt and presses against a small area of my body and feels rock under my belt where a longer slide distributes the pistol over a greater area.
I'm sure I'm the odd one here but full size guns are more comfortable as log as they aren't excessively heavy.

Maybe there's an argument for shootability? Does a shorter barrel reduce mass and recoil?
I think it can go both ways. My g34 which I carry IWB regularly has very little recoil but it feels like the slide returns to battery slower than my g19. The g19 is slightly snappier but seems to cycle faster.
I'm sure it comes down to personal preference but I kinda see the short barrel thing as a fad. Just look at the p365 line up. The original still has a place but the xl and macro are going to be better shooters with or without a RDS.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
I don't see the correlation and I have no desire for a pistol with a full-length grip and a stubby barrel. Furthermore, I think the move towards a dependency on electronic sighting devices on handguns is foolishness and may come back to bite someone at the worst possible time, with a system failure, and if you don't think it can happen, you are fooling yourself.

Putting fucking serrations all over slides, increasing the cost of manufacture by cutting slides for these damn electronic tumors, mounting electronic sights on pocket pistols! Jesus I wish manufacturers would cut it out.

I couldn't have said it better.
Who needs red dots on self defense handguns at 21 feet or less? Maybe if one is legally blind....
I don't even want to get started on cut out slides and garish finishes (but I will).
Designers of semi auto pistols figured out in the late 1890s and early 1900s that covered slides protected barrels and recoil springs from dirt and other unwanted debris from affecting reliable functioning.

quote:

Originally posted by DanH:
...there's a very good chance that someone has back up iron sights incase of a dot failure.

If I may ask, how does this work on a pistol? I have not seen a pistol mounted with a red dot in person. From the pictures I've see online, it appears that the base of the red dot would obscure the sights.

-Most BUIS on pistols with dots are suppressor height.

-Some dots have a rudimentary rear built into the dot.

-Some current offerings are getting small enough to co-witness with stock irons. (Holosun SCS for example)

As far as my own low speed, high drag, crappy shooter observations go. For “normal” SD distances the dot isn’t any faster and is really just the best night sight ever. (At least for me.). As the distance stretches out past 15 yards or more, again for me personally, the dot absolutely makes hits easier and faster.

I also have to say at “normal” SD ranges the dot window does an admirable job of being a GIANT ghost ring and will allow hits even if off/not working.

NOTE - When I say “normal” SD distances that isn’t meant to imply those are all that occur just that the closer range 5-10 yard stuff tends to be the bigger part of the bell. You’ve already lost the statistics game if you are drawing a gun in anger.

I am currently in a Glock Red Dot Instructor class. One guy tried w/ a G45. Went back to his G34. Much better for him. There is one G34, one G19, one G17(mine). Everyone else G45’s. I have learned one thing. I am glad I got back up irons that are barely over the bottom of the red dot window. Keep that glass open and clear. If you need to go back to the irons you can. Just bear down a little.

quote:

Originally posted by 357fuzz:
I am currently in a Glock Red Dot Instructor class.

Who is your instructor, McIntyre?

I took it last year. All week I was smoking everyone on the qual. 5-6 seconds ahead of everyone else every day. Last day, I shanked a round (stupidly) on the multiple target phase. Pushed my time to almost 19 seconds. Out of nowhere another dude shot it in 16 and change.

Oh well.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by 357fuzz:
I am currently in a Glock Red Dot Instructor class.

Who is your instructor, McIntyre?

I took it last year. All week I was smoking everyone on the qual. 5-6 seconds ahead of everyone else every day. Last day, I shanked a round (stupidly) on the multiple target phase. Pushed my time to almost 19 seconds. Out of nowhere another dude shot it in 16 and change.

Oh well.

Yep. Good dude and instructor.

Very