Wanted to wait until this auction closed to post this picture and ask my questions.

Does “Holden” mean that this pistol was assembled using parts?

I ask this because the seller showed a factory shot target in his auction.

This pistol seems to have a lot of information engraved on it. It shows a US SN# but everything says made in Germany and the factory target reflects this pistols SN# and looks to have been shot at SIG Germany or someone copied a target and added this pistols SN#. Also, no factory box shown in the closed auction photos.

I did not bid or purchase this pistol and it went fairly cheap ($1300.00). Just wanting to understand if this is a true German manufactured ands assembled pistol or a US assembled unit.

Thanks to anyone who can educate me on this “busy” engraved/marked pistol.

I've never heard of them but using Google Holden is probably https://www.waffen-friedrichs....n/holden-custom-guns

Mark,

This one is aftermarket FrankenSIG.

* Whenever you see Holden on it, there is no doubt. Even if Holden wasn't on it, there are many other tells that can help you determine it was an aftermarket FrankenSIG .

* Proof date code "CC" is year 2022. SIG DE officially shut down at the end of 2020. There are some factory made SIGs that bear the year 2021, but you can say those were allowed to be made as they were in the middle of the builds at the end, so they spilled over to early 2021. And they bear all the proper factory tells. But the gun in question and many others that were sold, and are being sold on GB, were assembled by German dealers who bought all the remaining factory parts, as it closed doors. Hence, the later proof year (2022). SIG DE is long gone by then.

* SIG DE's proof house is Kiel, and it's on-site. This gun has the Cologne proof house's symbol.

* No outer cardboard box. And, when there is one, it's always with a generic blank "SIG SAUER" label on it. If there is any additional info, they are always hand scribbled. Sellers gave these FrankenSIGs all kinds of bullshit names. The one in question is called the "X-FIVE SHORT & SMART", but it's nothing of the sort.

* Remember that signature on the test target, the "X" and the handwriting style of the serial number as an aid. It was done by the dealer.

* Frame was US made, already stamped with serial number and original factory marking, and sent to SIG DE when they still operated. That's the reason for the "US" prefix. Regarding the US made Xframes, not many were made into complete guns by SIG DE factory, before they closed. After they closed, remaining inventory were gobbled up by dealers, and aftermarket Frankenguns were made as noted above. The Attic bought/imported tons of these and spread them out on GB, telling lies that they were factory made guns. When we on another board called them out for their deception, they eventually massaged their wordings just enough to no longer say it was actually made at SIG DE factory, but still left enough room to mislead the uninformed..

* I'll add to this list another clue. Some of these aftermarket FrankenXguns have slide engravings so atrocious that you think they were made by high schoolers just starting to learn in their machine shop class. And you'll be able to spot them easily.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 12131,

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
Mark,

This one is aftermarket FrankenSIG.

Q. I was going to reply, "Go on", as in, "please continue."

You didn't disappoint.

Q - Thank you, again, for educating me and taking time to explain. WOW - not a simple answer and in reading your details it seems there may be more of these type pistols that will appear from time to time.

Thanks again. Mark

Here is one the few genuine factory made guns that were in the process of being made at the end of 2020 and spilled over into early 2021 for completion, the P226 X-SIX Midnight. And, it's in their 2020 catalog, so you know it's legit.


DE21


Kiel proof house symbol, CB date code (2021)



Test target done by their Head of Sales at the time, Hendrik Geissler. Near the end, you'll see A. Koch's or M. Barski's stamped signature on the test targets and they're legit. At the end, Geissler's signature was about the only one you see, as it appears that he was the only one left who did these test firings, as SIG DE was winding down.



Even a letter by Geissler


Outer cardboard box with proper label containing legit factory info on the gun

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 12131,

This is another FrankenSIG example done by the same German dealer, imported by none other than The Attic. No "Holden", but note the signature, the handwriting, the blank label on the outer cardboard box. Frame is German, but note that it's 2nd Gen (aka the Enhanced version) frame topped with a 1st Gen upper.







Not only did The Attic use to claim on their listings that these guns were made by SIG DE factory, but also that they were imported directly from SIG DE, which is another BS, because the German factory was still under their government exporting prohibition.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 12131,

Thank you Q for sharing this wealth of information.

^^^^^^^^ Yes Q, as Nontypical said - THANK YOU.

I continue to learn from you and this class was a HUGE learning opportunity. Thanks for taking the time to also share photos of one from your collection. Beautiful X6. Love the finish on that pistol.

That is some good info to have/share. Thanks. I was recently looking at a "Holden" gun and almost bought it but questioned all the stamps/etching on the barrel.

Q, How much does that affect the value on them? Would it be comparable to a "red box" Sig or less?

I recently saw a Sig X5 pistol that was marked Holden that was for sale on GB where the seller identified that the like new pistol’s trigger would not reset correctly and would need to be sent to Sig for warranty work. This struck me as odd but reading Q’s comments this sounds like it was also a pistol put together by a German distributor who did not have all of the needed parts to complete the build or just did not put the pistol’s innards together correctly.

quote:

Originally posted by patw:
How much does that affect the value on them? Would it be comparable to a "red box" Sig or less?

If one is equipped with the knowledge and is a collector looking for factory original, then it's not hard to decide that these Frankenguns are worth nowhere near their true factory counterparts. If you're ignorant, then it's easy to be taken for a ride. Early on, after SIG DE has closed, and these guns flooded GB, people paid moon money for them left and right. But, as time goes by, and people became aware of their true nature, they have commanded less. Any of them that remain sky high tend to languish and get relisted. There still are uninformed people around to get suckered, though.

Pretty sad. A real shame that SIG DE wasn't more selective on who they chose to sell this material to, and on requiring full and accurate disclosure with any so-called "SIGS" that were assembled from these parts.