Living in California is tough if you are a gun guy. I came here from a free state, and will never get over the liberty sucking machine that is the California legislature. But, after 18 years behind the tofu curtain, I have planned my escape and will be free once more in the next 12 months.

In anticipation of my constitutional release, I have been researching both handguns and carbines that I will be free to own once California is in my rear view mirror.

So on a return trip to Washington State to see family, I took an afternoon to visit my old range and fun store to do some investigative research. Having a great selection of rental guns to choose from, I was able to try most of the guns I had only read about in magazines or great sites like SIG Forum.

Here are the guns I fondled and shot:
SIG P320 Carry
H&K VP90
Walther PPQ
S&W M&P9 FS

I did not go into this with the thought of a review, I just wanted to fulfill my curiosity and try some different guns. What surprised me was how different my opinions of each gun was after shooting them compared to my observations handling them at the counter. You really do need to shoot guns before you buy them.

SIG P320, impressions at the counter:

The only two frame sizes I could fondle at the counter were the compact and sub-compact - both had the factory "Medium" grip width.

The SIG is a quality polymer handgun, fit and finish are very good. In my large hands the grip felt overly round and somewhat fat. The texture could be rougher for my liking, but it was far from slick. Trigger was fairly good, definitely much more than just "serviceable," with a fair amount of take up and a slight over-travel. The weight seemed good and the break was fairly crisp. My concern upon handling was the rearward location of the slide stop. I shoot thumbs forward and I was curious if I would introduce a failure to lock open after the last round was fired.

On the range:
The guns shot better for me than I felt it would at the counter. It points well and the trigger is quite good in practice. Since rapid fire was not possible at this range, I was only able to shoot controlled pairs from a low ready. I would guess that the SIG gets progressively better at speed. To my surprise, the slide stop location was a non issue for me, and the slide locked back on every empty magazine as it should.

Shooting for all pistols was done at 15 yard and consisted of 2 five shot groups to start, then a couple magazines of controlled pairs from low ready. I then finished with 2 more 5 shot groups. The SIG was accurate, but my groups were strung a bit vertically and left of center. Double taps were quite good, as the recoil and muzzle rise on the P320 is quite light and controllable - something I really appreciated after shooting some of the other pistols.

H&K VP9, impressions at the counter:

I liked it. It felt good in the hand and pointed very naturally. The trigger was good, lighter than the SIG but felt less substantial if that makes an sense. fit and finish was okay, not as good as other H&K pistols I own or have shot, but it was fine. I must admit, this is one gun I was very excited to shoot.

On the range:

The biggest surprise in shooting the VP9 was the noticeable muzzle flip, it was almost distracting. Following the SIG was probably a bad place for the VP9, but it was more than that.
The trigger was consistent with the experience at the counter, good but not spectacular. Though not as communicative as I would have liked, but if I owned it, I would not feel compelled to do anything to it.

Accuracy was good in slow fire, less so in pairs from the low ready, stringing the second shot of a pair high and right. I believe this is a training issue, required in part by the recoil impulse of the gun. I love a paddle mag release, so the handling characteristics seemed familiar and comfortable. The trigger trough was a non issue for me.

Walther PPQ, impressions at the counter.

Other than the slick grip texture, this pistol felt next to perfect. The shape of the grip, the balance, control placement, point-ability, all fantastic. The mag release on this gun is perfect for thumb operation. No hand shift, yet not in the way, easy to operate. I would rethink my preference for a paddle mag release with ergo's this good. Then there is the trigger... what can I say, it is like a nice 1911 trigger. pulling the trigger was confirmation of everything I had heard - winner!

On the range:

This was the gun that caused me to write this (somewhat lengthy) review. Never before has my expectation been so wrong. Everything I thought I would love about the PPQ was a no go for me. Muzzle flip made the VP9 seem calm by comparison. The length of the slide stop was problematic for me, failing to lock the slide back with every empty magazine. The trigger..... that lovely, light, short reset trigger.... well it is still nice, but felt somewhat limp when it was not the focus of my attention. I have heard people say that the PPQ trigger is "too light" for a defensive handgun and my immediate thought was, "sissy's."
But, in my short time with the PPQ, i did something I had never done in almost 30 years of shooting; an unintentional double tap. This is not a gun you shoot once and a while or casually, the handling characteristics require you to intentionally drive this gun. I would love to try this one at speed, but quite honestly, the muzzle flip on the PPQ over rides its virtues for me. I took the PPQ back to the rental counter like I just broke up with a super model - a nice ride, but not a good fit.

S&W M&P9, counter observations;

The M&P I am considering is the new 2.0, which they had at the counter, but not in the rental case. I handled a 2.0 and shot a 1.0. The M&P 2.0 was a good fit for me. Not as sexy as the PPQ, but solid. The fit and finish on this gun seems better than the older M&P's, and the grip texture is a revelation. The gun points well, and was much sleeker than most of the others. The trigger was a VAST improvement over the 1.0 guns but still not fantastic. The biggest improvement is in its lack of over-travel and VERY positive, audible and short reset. The break is not as crisp as it could be, but unlike other M&P's, I would wait to shoot it a bit before I ordered any APEX parts. Better than the VP9, and on par with the SIG with a better reset. I'm not sure I agree with the decision to stop the auto forward concept, but I get the point.

For disclosure, I own two M&P pistols, both in 45 ACP - a full size and a compact. The FS has APEX parts, the compact is currently stock. I have had great luck with my FS 45 and shoot it well.

On the range:

The 1.0 I shot had a "better than some" trigger, otherwise described as okay for a M&P = crappy by most standards. To be honest, I wasn't expecting much from this one, given all the things I had read about accuracy issues and a general bla performance....

I picked up this (admittedly) familiar feeling gun and got a huge surprise. It was the most accurate gun I shot all day, by a fair margin. Every 5 shot group I shot with the M&P9 could have been covered by a 50 cent piece or less, even with the crappy trigger. Controlled pairs were easy and well centered, helped I'm sure by the very controllable and flat recoil impulse. Shooting this gun well seemed easy, but I needed to be sure it wasn't because I was warmed up and it was familiar. So I went back to the rental counter and got the SIG and VP9 again - the results were the same.

My conclusions:

First of all, I was somewhat let down. All this time I had read the reviews of these industry leading handguns and anticipated the glory I had been missing all this time. Left with a scant few options by my legislative over-lords. But in the end, they are just one of many options that may or may not be a better fit.

I realized the absolute importance of shooting something before you buy it. Anticipation can be a bitch, and it lies. Nothing fits everyone the same, and what may feel good at the counter, may hide some ugly wort's once you tickle the bang switch.

Training with everything is a must, and some of the issues I uncovered would be overcome by the familiarity of training. But even this short sample impressed to me that even though these guns are vying for the same market, they are more different than they appear at the gun counter.

So at this point, the two guns I am considering are the M&P 2.0 and a gun I that is not on the market yet; the CZ P10c. I am all but certain the 2.0 will find its way on my hip, but time behind the wheel will be the ultimate test. That texture I loved so much may be a problem - who knows. And the CZ; it seems like a great gun, but so did the others I shot. Time will tell with them both.

But the very best part of my test, was the realization that freedom and liberty are extremely important. The thought that my current state of residence denies me these options is a disgusting reminder of what can happen if we do not water our constitutional garden.

Excellent post! Thank you for your time to write it!

Interesting observations. Owned a VP9. Ok but it never grew on me. Own an M&P40. Really like it. Changed it to 357 Sig and now I love it even more. As to the Walther PPQ I could not disagree more. Love the trigger and the ergo's. My favorite striker fired gun and I have several to compare it to. It's in 40 with the paddle. Shot it this past Saturday in a bowling pin competition. Performed in a most outstanding manner. Only change I have made is to cover the grip with a TUFF 1 grip cover. Perfect.

Funny, I came to similar conclusions. I've been on the search to replace my P229 as EDC.

It started with the PPQ. The muzzle flip is more than the others, but my P229 is .40 so it was rather similar to that. And although I love the trigger, I just don't shoot quite as tight. I wonder if the rear sight notch is wider. Yes, the grips need the Talon treatment.

The VP9 was the next experiment and when I say it yaws on me rapid fire, everyone looks puzzled. I string high right, just like you did. Slow fire it groups great. The killer is the paddles, as they stick up into the trigger guard and poke my finger, even after a replacement and filing one down.

The P320 was the pleasant surprise. I didn't think much of the P250 and the grips are the same. Talons do help. I didn't find much slack in the trigger. The break is a touch heavier than it needs to be, but still nice, better than the VP9 (which is good). It is one heck of a shooter.

Another that was better than I expected was the FNS-9. I'll have to rent it again, but I might rank it next to or just above the PPQ. It's not as nice at the counter as you said, but better on the range.

Great review, also glad to hear another person is escaping California. I bought a PPQ from a fellow member here about 2 months ago or so and is by far one of my favorite guns. Trigger is amazing, feels great, shoots great, can't complain, but everyone has their own opinion

quote:

Originally posted by warbird1:
As to the Walther PPQ I could not disagree more. Love the trigger and the ergo's. My favorite striker fired gun and I have several to compare it to. It's in 40 with the paddle.

To my point, warbird - we all like what we like. As my dad used to say, "there is an ass for every seat."

Remember you have a P228 coming your way in a few months when you move 12131.

I had the exact same issue with the PPQ.
I lusted for one for months when they were first announced. I drove two hours to a shop to pick one up. Felt sooo good in the hand.

The muzzle flip, the inadvertent riding of the huge ambi slide lock levers, the uber-light trigger, the paddle mag releases. I spent a day with it then it was gone.

I bought two PPQ's, and just gave one to my brother. Great pistol, but won't replace my Glocks.

quote:

Originally posted by BB61:
Remember you have a P228 coming your way in a few months when you move 12131.

That goes without saying, as well as a SAO SIG of some sort.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Nick,

If I were to move back to cali, the only semi auto I would keep there is a usp 45c.

-Freq

That is why it is important to try out whatever you are considering. I have tried all the same and the 9MM PPQ is my favorite SF pistol. I own the VP9 and Glock 19 also. I did find the P320 Compact is an impressive pistol. A different grip/ back strap can also make a difference (sometimes big difference) in the shooting characteristics of a pistol for an individual by letting the grip fit a shooters hand/fingers better and often it is not the one that "feels best". Sadly when renting a pistol you are usually stuck with whatever the range pistol has on it.

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:
Another that was better than I expected was the FNS-9. I'll have to rent it again, but I might rank it next to or just above the PPQ. It's not as nice at the counter as you said, but better on the range.

I was going to suggest the OP take a look at the FNS line as well. I have been pleasantly surprised with my FNS9C. Picked it up on a whim for a good deal, and damn if it isn't a very nice little pistol. A bit bigger than the M&P9c, and a bit smaller than the G19. Good size, very nice trigger & reset, excellent sights, good ergos & grip, and (for me) very accurate. I'm considering picking up a full size. And the M&P 2.0 is of interest as well, but I haven't had a chance to handle one yet (or shoot).

The drastic difference in the ergo'a vs shooting characteristics of the PPQ reminds me of 2 other guns: the P2000, which felt so fantastic but I shot poorly. The other is the entire line of Glock pistols but in reverse - I shoot them well, but the interface is dreadful for me, painful in fact.

Good stuff Nick. Its is amazing how some pistols can feel different to most folks. I like what S&W did with the 2.0. Just waiting to handle a compact variant and always thought that version to be "right sized"..

Thanks for the post. Good Stuff!!

Very good post. Thank you!

quote:

Originally posted by Nick:
Living in California is tough if you are a gun guy. I came here from a free state, and will never get over the liberty sucking machine that is the California legislature. But, after 18 years behind the tofu curtain, I have planned my escape and will be free once more in the next 12 months.

This is hilarious! "Behind the tofu curtain". I love it!

Great post! I have flushed allot of money because I didn't shoot a firearm before I purchased it.

Yep. I did that with the M&P full size and a P30. Both felt great at the counter but I never did learn to shoot either really well.

They ended up being ok, but I shot the P226 better even though it felt to big in my hand.

The Glock 19 still feels uncomfortable, but I can shoot it better than any other striker gun.

I have a theory about this. I think guns can be too ergonomic in the grip, causing your hand to relax a bit. The glock feels spindly and blocky causing you to really grip the gun.

This being said, I still have to Dremel under the trigger guard on the 19.