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A Force Science Institute study re grip strength and handgun marksmanship. Login/Join 
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted
A study published by the Force Science Institute.
======================================

A new study led by Ph.D. student Andrew Brown examined the effects of grip strength and gender on shooting performance.

Brown and fellow researchers sought to verify independent studies showing that grip strength was directly related to a person’s ability to manage aim, recoil, and trigger pull. These skills are widely recognized as some of the key components of superior shooting performance.

This latest study was designed to replicate previous research relative to grip strength and to identify what range of strength might be required to achieve shooting test standards. The resulting data was used to examine the relationship between grip strength, gender, and shooting scores.

According to the researchers, a standard-issue 9 mm pistol might have between 4lbs-6lbs of trigger pull weight. A double-action-only pistol might be closer to 9lbs-12lbs. Still, trigger pull weight can depend on the type of gun, the hammer mechanism (e.g., single-action vs. double action), and whether mechanical adjustments have been made. As a rule of thumb, the amount of pressure required to pull a trigger and fire a round (“trigger pull weight”) is roughly equivalent to a firm handshake.

Researchers explained the influence of trigger pull weight: “Trigger pull weight appears to impact shooting performance as triggers that are too heavy [for the individual shooter] seem to activate additional muscles in the hand.” They continued: “If the trigger pull of a firearm exceeds the force of a handshake, isolation of the index finger becomes difficult, causing the hand to engage in the use of additional muscles to complete the task of pulling the trigger. The overcompensation of unnecessary muscles, in turn, negatively affects shooting performance through involuntary hand movements.”

The questions remained, how much strength is needed to avoid these grip-related issues and pass a standard police pistol course, and will an officer’s gender predict negative shooting performance related to grip strength?

Researchers had 118 active police officers, ranging in age from 22-62, conduct a standardized police pistol qualification using a double-action-only pistol with a trigger pull weight of between 8lbs-12lbs.

Before attempting to qualify, the participants completed a demographic questionnaire to document their age, rank, gender, and years of police service. Researchers then measured and recorded the participants’ dominant hand maximum grip strength.

After their grip strength was measured, participants performed the police pistol qualification with stationary targets between 10 and 82 feet. The results of the tests were analyzed and compared to the grip strength measurements and officer demographics.

Male officers in this study had, on average, higher qualification scores than the female officers. 21.9 % of the female officers in this study failed the qualification compared to 8.1% of the male officers. Researchers theorized that insufficient grip strength would negatively impact shooting performance, and that female officers would, on average, have lower grip strength than male officers. Both theories were supported by the research results.

First, researchers determined that grip strength in the range of 80lbs and 125lbs was needed to score approximately 85% and 90% on the pistol qualification test. The average grip strength for the female officers in the study was 77.5lbs, while the average for the men was 121.5lbs.

78% of the females and 92% of the males passed the qualification test (22% and 8% failed respectively). Researchers observed that, for every pound below the average grip strength required to score between 85% and 90%, the odds of an officer failing the pistol qualification increased by 2%.
Discussion

Shooting performance is influenced by a variety of factors, and it appears that grip strength is certainly one of them. Andrew Brown provided the following observations: “In our study, higher rates of failure appeared to be correlated with lower grip strength.” Brown continued: “Agencies should consider minimum grip requirements based on the issued duty pistol trigger weight. Although grip strength issues might disproportionately impact female officers, strength training may help to mitigate grip-related deficiencies regardless of the officer’s gender.”

A recent article in Officer.com reported that NYPD is moving toward lighter trigger pull weights for their recruits. This move is consistent with Brown’s recommendation that agencies “examine the adoption of pistols with lower trigger pull weights to mitigate grip strength related shooting issues.”

Dr. Bill Lewinski, executive director of the Force Science Institute, supports Brown’s recommendations and was encouraged by the NYPD’s move to a lighter trigger pull weight: “We often hear that higher trigger pull weights can provide increased decision-making time for officers. The research does not support that position.” Dr. Lewinski explained: “Even the heavier triggers can have a travel time as quick as 6/100 to 8/100 of a second. If the decision to pull the trigger has already been made, the travel time of the trigger isn’t going to result in sufficient time to change your mind and stop that action.”

Dr. Lewinski addressed another concern that often accompanies lower trigger pull weights: “Agencies are always looking for ways to reduce the number of unintentional discharges, and trigger pull weights should always be a part of that discussion.”

Lewinski cautioned, “Researchers have observed officers unintentionally and non-consciously touch the trigger of their firearm while they were engaged in vigorous physical movements during a simulated high-threat robbery scenario. About 6% of those officers unintentionally applied sufficient pressure to pull a 12 lbs. trigger weight. More importantly, nearly 20% unintentionally applied enough pressure to fire a gun with a 5 lbs. trigger pull weight.”3

Dr. Lewinski reiterated what remains the most important consideration for avoiding unintended discharges, “In our research, we saw that around 31% of the unintended discharges involved striker-fired weapons. Of those, well over half of the unintended discharges were the result of intentionally pulling the trigger before clearing the chamber during disassembly [i.e., field stripping the weapon]. To mitigate unintentional trigger pulls and subsequent discharges, including cases that involve muscle co-activation, startle response, or routine weapon handling, keeping the finger outside of the trigger well is a critical safety protocol regardless of the trigger pull weight.”

LINK:
https://www.forcescience.org/2...tm_source=newsletter




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 44195 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Interesting article. I'd like to see the relationship between grip strength & marksmenship among skilled shooters. I doubt someone like Lena Miculek whose thin as a reed has much higher than average female grip strength.

The article only addresses LEOs. We know there are LEOs who like to hit the gym but not the range, so while they may have the strongest grips among their cohorts, it wouldn't transfer to their shooting quals so much.
 
Posts: 2277 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Lewinski tends to parse some interesting topics, but often at times he seems to have a result, and then he finds the study to “prove” it.

I remember one such “study” he did on point shooting, using all kinds of fancy tech. The results basically said that cops, regardless of training point shoot under stress, so point shooting is the way to go. Which we know that trained shooters, in Tier One and Two units, don’t use point shooting as a primary technique because it’s highly unreliable to produce professional results.

To each their own. If he had ended the study with a true finding, such as you will perform as you train, it would have been palatable.

The fact of the matter is that few cops, and fewer cops not assigned to a high end unit that places value on individual marksmanship, are highly proficient with a pistol. Too few cops are true students of the pistol, despite being assigned to special teams, and will invest the massive amount of time it takes to be top shelf. I’ll always with confidence would put the upper 50 percent in IDPA or USPSA against the upper 50 percent in any cop shop for skills.

When you factor that in, it reduces articles like this to interesting bathroom fodder that have no real bearing on what you or I should do with a pistol.




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Posts: 35360 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by iron chef:
I doubt someone like Lena Miculek whose thin as a reed has much higher than average female grip strength..


Depending on how you classify "much higher" I'd be willing to take that bet. If the average female strength (as cited above as 77.5 lbs), I'd be wagering she's more along the lines of 50-60% that or better.


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Posts: 1249 | Location: T-town in the 253 | Registered: January 16, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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Whatever else we may criticize about the article, keep in mind it was about firing pistols with relatively heavy double action trigger pulls: 8-12 pounds.
That alone limits its applicability to all other handgun marksmanship issues.

Research like this isn’t supposed to have unstated agendas, but I could easily see how it was prompted by question like, “Should police officers be forced to carry handguns with excessively heavy trigger pulls?” or “Our women officers are having a hard time qualifying. How can we improve their performance?”

The conclusion that heavy trigger pulls make it harder for some people to shoot guns well shouldn’t be any sort of surprise, but I nevertheless found the bit of rigorous research involved interesting and is why I posted the article. Once again I am reminded of Grace Hopper’s observation that one accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions. The study is something I would keep in mind if my opinion about handguns were solicited.




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 44195 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
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quote:
Originally posted by iron chef:
Interesting article. I'd like to see the relationship between grip strength & marksmenship among skilled shooters.

I don't recall if I bookmarked it, and I don't feel like searching for it right now, but I was reading a pistol marksmanship thing on-line a few years ago where the author insisted a strong grip was essential for good performance. He stated, somewhere in the thing, that "you won't find a top competitive marksmanship shooter with a weak grip," or words to that effect.




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
"If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher
"The dominant media is no more ``mainstream`` than leftists are liberals." -- me
 
Posts: 20872 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My apologies for the drift.




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Posts: 35360 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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good article thanks for posting.

as you mention -- not really a surprise -- but interesting to see it quantified.

i remember reading an article years ago that a particular LE agency -- maybe LAPD ?? -- to join the force required applicants to rapidly pull the double action trigger of a standard SW revolver to test the hand strength of the applicant.

of course there's two sides to the coin -- more 'unwanted' discharges. and article from a few years ago:

Rise in accidental gunshots by L.A. County deputies follows new firearm

https://www.latimes.com/local/...-20150614-story.html

By Cindy Chang
June 13, 2015 5:36 PM PT

One sheriff’s deputy shot himself in the leg while pulling out his gun to confront a suspect.

Another accidentally fired a bullet in a restroom stall. A third deputy stumbled over a stroller in a closet as he was searching for a suspect, squeezing off a round that went through a wall and lodged in a piece of furniture in the next room.

Accidental gunshots by Los Angeles County sheriff’s deputies have more than doubled in two years, endangering bystanders and occasionally injuring deputies. The jump coincides with the department’s move to a new handgun that lacks a safety lever and requires less pressure to pull the trigger.

Sheriff’s officials say that the increase in accidental discharges — from 12 in 2012 to 30 last year — occurred because deputies were adjusting to the new gun. They expect the numbers to fall in the years ahead. So far this year, the department has recorded seven accidental discharges, five of which involved the new weapon.

But the problems may not be over, as more deputies switch to the Smith & Wesson M&P9. In response, department officials have imposed extra training requirements.

The M&P has obvious benefits. It is easier to shoot accurately, can be fired more reliably under stress and is a better fit for people with small hands. The switch was prompted in part by the threat of a lawsuit by women who had failed the Sheriff’s Academy. More recruits — including more women — are now passing the firearms test, and veteran deputies are also logging better scores at the firing range.

But the sharp increase in accidental discharges has prompted an investigation by the Sheriff’s Department’s new inspector general. Critics say this type of semiautomatic, which is widespread in law enforcement and includes the Glock used by many agencies, is too easy to misfire.

At the New York Police Department, a rookie officer is facing criminal charges, including negligent homicide, in a fatal shooting in a housing project stairwell. An attorney for the officer says he accidentally fired his department-issued Glock.

A former Los Angeles Police Department officer who was paralyzed when his 3-year-old son shot him with a Glock has sued the gun manufacturer and others, alleging that the light trigger pull and lack of a safety mechanism contributed to the accident.

Bob Owens, editor of BearingArms.com, says the design of the Glock and the M&P makes such tragedies more likely. “I don’t think, with the amount of training most agencies have, that a gun that has so few tolerances for mistakes is the best choice,” he said.

An adjustment

For two decades, L.A. County sheriff’s deputies carried the Beretta 92F, a heavy metal gun with a large grip.

People with small hands often have trouble flipping up the Beretta’s safety as they prepare to fire. The first shot requires 12 to 15 pounds of pressure on the trigger, forcing some to use two fingers and reducing shooting accuracy for many. Subsequent shots take about 4 pounds of pressure.

The M&P is made of lightweight polymer, with a hand grip that comes in three sizes. Firing a round is as simple as pulling the trigger with a consistent 6 to 8 pounds of pressure.

Sheriff’s deputies have the option of sticking with the Beretta, and some have, saying they are used to it. But many who have switched to the M&P say their shooting has improved.

“At first, I thought, ‘No way, I’m keeping my Beretta forever,’” said Sgt. Mike Rafter, a firearms instructor. “Then I started shooting, and it’s a lot nicer. I can shoot better, and I’m more confident.”

Academy trainees began receiving M&Ps in 2011 and the rest of the department began gradually switching to the new gun soon after. About half of sworn personnel are now using the M&P and more are changing over. As more deputies converted to the M&P, accidental discharges rose.

In 2012, there were 12 accidental discharges, none involving the M&P. In 2013, there were 18, eight of which were M&Ps. Of the 30 incidents in 2014, 22 involved M&Ps.

Assistant Sheriff Todd Rogers attributed the increase to deputies still adjusting to the lack of a safety on the new gun.

“The vast majority were people trained on the Beretta,” Rogers said. “There is a correlation, no doubt about it.”

A Beretta spokesperson did not return a phone call seeking comment. A spokesperson for Smith & Wesson said the company does not speak publicly about the weapons it supplies to law enforcement.

Accidents on duty

Many of the accidental M&P discharges in 2014 occurred while deputies were on duty, often on the street or in homes during searches. In one December incident, a sheriff’s deputy in Compton approached a car he thought might have been stolen. The occupants had already ran off. As he walked up with his M&P drawn to make sure there was no one else inside, he accidentally pulled the trigger.

The bullet hit the driver’s side door. There were bystanders nearby, but no one was injured.

A month earlier, a Lancaster deputy was following a driver he suspected of having a gun. When the man got out and walked toward the patrol car, the deputy took off his seat belt and was pulling out his M&P when he fired it into his own thigh. He was the only person injured that year, but in other cases, civilians or other deputies were nearby and could have been hit.

In a Walnut-area house in January 2014, a deputy accidentally fired a round into the ceiling when a golf bag fell on his hand. Another deputy was in the room at the time.

When a deputy tripped over a stroller and fired a round through a wall in October 2014, there was another deputy nearby, with more deputies and a civilian elsewhere in the Huntington Park house.

The NYPD custom-rigs its handguns with a heavier trigger pull to reduce the risk of accidents. Prosecutors argue that rookie Officer Peter Liang broke a key safety rule by resting his finger on the trigger of his Glock while patrolling a Brooklyn housing project on Nov. 20. As Liang pushed open a stairwell door, he fired a bullet that fatally struck Akai Gurley, 28, who was walking down the stairs. Liang’s attorney has said that his client shot the gun accidentally.

Shortly after the LAPD switched from Berettas to Glocks a decade ago, Officer Enrique Herrera Chavez was shot in the back by his 3-year-old son. Chavez was driving on July 10, 2006, when the boy found his father’s Glock under the vehicle’s center console and discharged a round, rendering Chavez a paraplegic.

Chavez’s lawsuit was dismissed in 2010, but an appeals court ruled that a jury should hear many of the former police officer’s arguments that the design of the Glock made it too easy for a small child to fire. A trial is scheduled for October.

‘Training scars’

L.A. County sheriff’s deputies learning to shoot the Beretta were taught to rest a finger on the trigger as soon as they took aim. The mantra was “on target, on trigger.”

With M&Ps and Glocks, the trigger finger should stay on the side of the gun until the last moment.

To combat the rise in accidental discharges, deputies are now required to pass a marksmanship test four times a year instead of three and to take a course designed to break old Beretta habits. Those who have accidentally discharged their weapons are typically required to repeat the training.

“We call them training scars,” Rogers said. “It’s muscle memory. And especially in stressful situations, people revert to their training.”

Richard Fairburn, a firearms expert who works for a law enforcement agency in Illinois, called the M&P a “more modern weapon” that enables more officers to shoot well. But, he said, the lighter trigger pull and lack of a safety could result in more accidental discharges if the new habits aren’t drummed into deputies through rigorous training.

“If you still have your finger on the trigger when you put it in your holster, you’ll end up with a stripe on your leg,” Fairburn said.

The LAPD recently began issuing M&Ps after using Glocks since 2005, said Lt. Dana Berns, who heads the firearms and tactics section. The department did not provide accidental discharge statistics in response to requests by The Times. But Berns said he did not believe the department had a problem when officers made the transition to the Glock, and none is expected with the M&P because it is similar to the Glock.

Unlike sheriff’s deputies, LAPD officers were trained to carry the Beretta with the safety off because flipping it was cumbersome and could result in the gun firing too late, or not firing at all, in dangerous situations.

The key to preventing accidental discharges is training, Berns said. The LAPD requires officers to pass six firearms tests a year, including one with a shotgun and one that simulates real-life scenarios.

“It seems as if the sheriffs are having a problem with training,” Berns said. “What you do subconsciously is a matter of training.”

Better test results

The M&P appears to have fulfilled its promise on one front: More women are making it into the department. The percentage of female recruits who failed the firearms test has plunged from 6.4% to less than 1%.

Pass rates are up across the board, not just for women. With the Beretta, more than 60% of trainees in one academy class needed extra firearms training. Ten out of 80 or so trainees in another class flunked because of the shooting test.

With the M&P, the class with the worst shooting results sent only 17% of trainees to remediation, and only three failed.

Susan Paolino, whose 1980 gender discrimination lawsuit against the Sheriff’s Department resulted in a landmark consent decree, said female deputies should be held to the same standards as men. But she supports new equipment that can help them meet those standards.

About 18% of sheriff’s deputies are women.

“If it’s something that’s not going to let them lower the standards, where they still have to have the skill but shoot better with a gun that fits their hand, that’s great,” Paolino said.

cindy.chang@latimes.com

------------------------------------------------


Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
 
Posts: 8579 | Location: Florida | Registered: September 20, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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and the trigger pull test was the FBI -- article from 1995 related to the GENDER Discrimination aspect of all things ...

https://www.baltimoresun.com/n...995278046-story.html

FBI's trigger-pull test called discrimination against women Female trainees complain about strength exercise
NEW YORK TIMES NEWS SERVICE THE BALTIMORE SUN

WASHINGTON -- Two women training at the FBI have complained that a firearms test that measures trigger-pulling strength has been used by the law enforcement agency to discriminate against women, a lawyer for one of them said yesterday.

The other woman resigned yesterday after she had tried several times to pass a test in which new agents are required to pull the trigger of an unloaded handgun 29 times in 30 seconds.

Agents who repeatedly fail the test are dropped from the FBI.

Jessica Jurney, the trainee who resigned, said that at one point she pulled the trigger 27 times with her left hand and 25 times with her right hand.

After a debate over whether she could qualify with her left or right hand, she quit, saying she felt her trainers had labeled her a potential troublemaker.

Ms. Jurney, a 29-year-old lawyer from Mississippi, said the FBI had recruited her as part an effort to hire more women at an agency traditionally dominated by men.

"I went in thinking they would really work with me to be a good agent," she said, but encountered a rigid, sometimes hostile, environment at the FBI training base in Quantico, Va.

FBI officials have said they are evaluating the relevancy of the test. More broadly, Louis J. Freeh, the FBI director, has said he is committed to eliminating any bias he uncovers at the agency.

But some women say change is slow in coming.

The trigger-pull test is one of a number of issues that have prompted some women at the FBI to organize into a group that has begun the first steps that could lead to a complaint to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, a prerequisite to a discrimination lawsuit against the agency.

Women said the test was not related to any task FBI agents are required to perform. They also complained that the test was sometimes given using weapons too large for their hands before they begin training.

The lawyer, David J. Shaffer, represents a group of women, including agents and prospective employees who say the FBI's policies discourage them from getting hired.

He said Ms. Jurney's case "shows how the Bureau is unwilling to change pervasive environmental issues at Quantico."

-----------------------------

i am guessing that requirement was dropped years ago...

------------------


Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
 
Posts: 8579 | Location: Florida | Registered: September 20, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I Deal In Lead
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They need to do a similar test with people who aren't police officers. I think they'd get very different results if they did.

Professional shooters would be a good place to start.
 
Posts: 7070 | Location: Gilbert Arizona | Registered: March 21, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Was the LA sheriff hiring idiots? Or just training them to be?

Not rhetorical. That’s a lot of NDs.




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Although sometimes distracting, there is often a certain entertainment value to this easy standard.
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Posts: 11109 | Location: NC | Registered: August 16, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I love how the LAPD article failed to ID the real cause of the NDs instead blaming the trigger and “training scars.”

If fingers weren’t on triggers when drawing or searching there wouldn’t be NDs. Putting your finger on the trigger as soon as sights are on target ala their Beretta training isn’t a training scar either unless these officers chose to put their sights on their legs, car doors, through walls etc.




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Posts: 4916 | Location: Oregon | Registered: October 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Just my general perspective. I've read enough mags, articles and studies over a 60 year period to sink a battleship. Provided it wasn't a pile of garbage written by a know-nothing, I usually can find a nugget.

Take the nugget and run. You can usually get some info that is beneficial, even though the overall piece may not be stellar. It's up to you to put the nuggets together and develop your own ideas. I've never outsourced my life to "experts" of any kind.

In astronomical studies, determining the scientific facts concerning ONE star is useful. While it doesn't give you a comprehensive picture of the entire universe, it is one more fact on the way to understanding the universe.

That's my two cents. OP, thanks for the post.


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Posts: 4424 | Location: Northeast | Registered: June 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Interesting article. For me, it would be more interesting if a Medical Doctor, Kinesiologist, etc. followed up on this to see if it was truly related to muscular strength and followed up with more detailed analysis. I would assume large agencies like the F.B.I. would/could fund such endeavors. Not to be a snob, but for a Psychologist to investigate such angles is interesting but lacking credentials. Maybe I'm just holding a grudge for past lame Psych evals and later Industrial Psychologists justifying their waste of funds/time on numerous degrees.


 
Posts: 1729 | Location: North Cackalacky | Registered: September 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The issue with heavy triggers is not simply accuracy.


They are dangerous because shooters get conditioned to them and subconsciously stack the trigger. You see it big time on Glocks where guys will take up the entire first stage, aim precisely, then press to the shot.


Stupidly dangerous.


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Posts: 3042 | Location: CONUS | Registered: June 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
From the study:
Researchers explained the influence of trigger pull weight: “Trigger pull weight appears to impact shooting performance as triggers that are too heavy [for the individual shooter] seem to activate additional muscles in the hand.” They continued: “If the trigger pull of a firearm exceeds the force of a handshake, isolation of the index finger becomes difficult, causing the hand to engage in the use of additional muscles to complete the task of pulling the trigger. The overcompensation of unnecessary muscles, in turn, negatively affects shooting performance through involuntary hand movements.”

Coincidentally, I've just recently been re-training myself... again. I'm very on/off with shooting. I'll go months where I practice regularly, then not shoot or dry-fire for a year. Once even several years. (Yeah, I know I should stay in practice if I'm going to carry.)

Every time I get back into it I have to spend a ton of time dry-firing to get my trigger/grip control back, so as to keep the sights aligned as I pull the trigger.

This time around I finally figured out what my repeated problem had been: Not insufficient grip pressure so much as wrong grip... geometry? I needed to apply more "front-to-back" grip, fingers to back of palm, than across the palm.

Funny thing is: I knew that, with heavier triggers, I was tightening my other fingers during the trigger pull. Instead of gripping a bit tighter to mitigate against that, I'd been working to stop doing it, which is very hard to do.

quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
From the study:
The questions remained, how much strength is needed to avoid these grip-related issues ...

I've no idea what my grip strength is. When I'm doing grip-strength training I know it can get pretty high, but I haven't done that, regularly, in years. That being said: For me, I'm finding it's more getting it right than necessarily employing a lot of strength.

If fact, now I'm working on over-compensation--gripping harder than necessary, which leads to aiming errors and quickly tiring the hand.

quote:
Originally posted by Sig209:
WASHINGTON -- Two women training at the FBI have complained that a firearms test that measures trigger-pulling strength has been used by the law enforcement agency to discriminate against women, a lawyer for one of them said yesterday.

We can't pass with the existing standards, so the standards must be lowered. Man, I'm so tired of seeing that bullshit. (Yeah, I know this is from nearly three decades ago.)

Personally, I'd be mortified if somebody suggested lowering their standards to allow for my admission

quote:
Originally posted by Sig209:
Women said the test was not related to any task FBI agents are required to perform.

So FBI agents never get into gun battles? I did not know this.




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
"If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher
"The dominant media is no more ``mainstream`` than leftists are liberals." -- me
 
Posts: 20872 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by FedDC:
Stupidly dangerous.


I find this curious. So, what are you saying, exactly? Are you advocating to wait later to pull the trigger when you have made the conscious decision to shoot? Confused

Seems to me, that if one is justified and is intentionally pulling the trigger, when and how they pull the trigger when the gun is pointed downrange is meaningless.

I am fascinated by you statement. Tell me more.




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Posts: 35360 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by FedDC:
Stupidly dangerous.

I find this curious. So, what are you saying, exactly? Are you advocating to wait later to pull the trigger when you have made the conscious decision to shoot? Confused

Seems to me, that if one is justified and is intentionally pulling the trigger, when and how they pull the trigger when the gun is pointed downrange is meaningless.

I was a bit confused by this one, too.

E.g.: The Springfield EMP with which I'm currently dry-fire practicing has a certain amount of take-up, then I hit the wall. As the muzzle approaches my target my finger moves to the trigger. As the target is acquired I take up the take-up. I refine my sight picture and pull the trigger.

E.g.: My SIG P210A has a two-stage trigger. Similar to the above, but an extra step. As I'm refining my sight picture I take up the first stage.

Now, if by, "subconsciously stack the trigger" you mean they're beginning to pull the trigger past any initial take-up, before they're actually on-target, well, yeah. That would be careless.




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
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Posts: 20872 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by FedDC:
Stupidly dangerous.


I find this curious. So, what are you saying, exactly? Are you advocating to wait later to pull the trigger when you have made the conscious decision to shoot? Confused

Seems to me, that if one is justified and is intentionally pulling the trigger, when and how they pull the trigger when the gun is pointed downrange is meaningless.

I am fascinated by you statement. Tell me more.



When you watch officers qual using a super heavy 2 stage trigger, they will often put their finger on the trigger before the target faces…then aim in and press the shot.


It teaches them to put their finger on the trigger and press through the first stage, stopping at the wall of the second stage. This is done to make times and because it’s more accurate…but wildly unsafe.


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Posts: 3042 | Location: CONUS | Registered: June 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
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quote:
Originally posted by FedDC:
When you watch officers qual using a super heavy 2 stage trigger, ...

What combat/SD sidearm uses a two-stage trigger?




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
"If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher
"The dominant media is no more ``mainstream`` than leftists are liberals." -- me
 
Posts: 20872 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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