OK, first I am NOT a new shooter having been shooting for 15 years including IDPA, USPSA, Steel, and Bullseye. With Polymer handguns I have trouble, I am always shooting left of the bullseye. I know all the common fixes. Different trigger finger placement, different pressure on one of the two hands, heels together, not together, maybe change thumbs forward a little.But nothing helps. It is not a huge issue but putting too many rounds in the "8" of a B52 target. Keep in mind it does not happen with a 1911 or CZ.

Now it usually happens with my EDC's of choice: H&K. I prefer the narrow grip adjustment. Now recently a really good shooter told me I should change to the fatter less comfortable grip and I will shoot better, He said the space at the top of most polymer guns is not condusive to great shooting which is why I shoot better with 1911's and my CZ. Well sure enough when I went to the fatter grips my shooting improved.

So here I am. Less comfortable grip. Better shooter. STRANGE!

There are others more experienced or trained than I am so they may offer a solution that works for you. I too often hit low left. And I know the fixes. I have found that for me, the gun makes a huge difference.
Example:
1911 - nice ragged hole dead center.
P220 - Same.
P225 Classic - ditto.
Glock - Dead center again.
GP100 - X ring.
Everything else - low left.
Maybe someone can suggest something I have not tried but for me, with certain guns, I struggle with getting a good centered group.
Everything else - low left

quote:

1911 - nice ragged hole dead center.
P220 - Same.
P225 Classic - ditto.
Glock - Dead center again.
GP100 - X ring.

Five great guns! Chuck the rest!

^^^^^ Fine suggestion and I have considered it! but I do want to shoot my 320 / 250s well.

quote:

Originally posted by SCfromNY:
So here I am. Less comfortable grip. Better shooter. STRANGE!

There's comfort and then there's fit.

You're not alone. My Steyr M40 feels great. I can't shoot it well, I pull everything low left. If I curl my strong hand thumb in tight and curl it down in an awkward manner, I can hit point of aim.

S&W M&P, feels great. Can't hit crap.

CZ thick grips, feels good. Push or pull shots left and right. Thin grips, feel funny, shoot them great.

Sorry to say, but for all your experience it sounds like fundamentals are still lacking. You need to work on gripping the frame front and back, not all around. Think C-clamp, not strap wrench. Then work on isolating your index finger movement. Forget more/less finger. Use what is natural and repeatable. Changes to grip that include the support hand are fine and dandy until you’re shooting one-handed. Proper fundamentals will still be there if your support hand isn’t.

I actually thing the HK P7 might be the perfect pistol to train with, because it forces the front/back grip. Too bad they’re so expensive now!

Actually I alternate shooting one handed almost 50% of the time. I am very comfortable shooting one handed something that when I was shooting in competition surprised a lot of people. I can shoot as well and sometimes better with one hand as two. I guess it is my age growing up on westerns. They never put two hands on their six guns unless to fan.

As a former handgun instructor, it would be fairly easy to diagnose in person. Like a lot of other issues, tough to do in a forum. However...

Here's a test I've used for decades, when handling a new gun in the gun shop. I always wanted to make sure the ergos worked for me before buying. This presumes the shop will allow you to dry-fire.

1) The usual. Gun unloaded, point in safe direction, safe background, etc.

2) Assume your normal grip on the pistol. Do the following sequence with one and two hand grips.

3) Tighten the grip as tight as possible. Just shy of shaking. This pressure is beyond what you would actually use to shoot the gun. It's only for test purposes.

4) Sights carefully aligned, focus on front sight, do a clean trigger press.

5) Observe either if or where the front sight displaces. If the front sight moves markedly, it's either your trigger press,a faulty grip technique or the pistol's grip ergos.

6) If you repeatedly see adverse front sight displacement, it's up to you to figure out what the cause is. You can also do this with guns you already own and see what happens.

A shooter with good fundamentals can adapt to nearly any gun and have good results...with enough practice. The point is to get a gun with suitable ergos so that you don't have to spend unnecessary additional time ADAPTING to the deficiencies.

My 1911's and P320's are two of my pistols I would call "naturals". Still get good results under pressure using a less than perfect technique. Especially with fast draw/fire drills where you don't necessarily get a perfect grip 100% of the time. This all boils down to having a greater margin of error under stress.

P.S> Glad you escaped from NY State. I lived in Syracuse and Elmira for about 25 years, before I escaped.

quote:

He said the space at the top of most polymer guns is not condusive to great shooting

I've no idea what that means, and when I don't understand the content, I question the value.

There are multiple reasons why fatter grips might do better for you. Possibly more optimal trigger finger placement. Possibly more optimal support hand performance, negating strong hand-related errors. Possibly just a honeymoon period.

Comfort vs performance is a separate and well established subject. Gun is supposed to support a correct execution of the fundamentals, access to controls, and not to be uncomfortable. "Fit in hand" and "comfort" is a gun store talk.

Shooting left of the bullseye could be a sight alignment issue, but I suspect more related to unconscious tightening of the right hand grip and a slight flexing of the right wrist at the shot as the trigger is pressed.

Shoot worse with a Glock, or left? Congratulations...nearly everyone does. Low and left. Shoot better with a CZ? Nearly everyone does. Shoot better with a 1911? It's a shooters pistol, especially today.

I've been shooting since I was a kid, and recall a math teacher back then who used to say "practice doesn't make perfect. Practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect permanently." Fast forward many years, and I took a long blister-enducing course from the forum's own Jerry Jones, which fundamentally changed the way I gripped the pistol, and thought about my shooting.

I never thought of myself as a real shooter, more just a guy who liked to plink, but Mr. Jones course convinced me that I had never been a shooter, and it was time to work on a different path. I did subsequent courses with his outfit, which I'd recommend to those who can go. The point of mentioning it is that there may be a great deal of what we're comfortable doing, which may either be flawed, or could stand improvement, and often it takes an external source to evaluate and give us the tools to alter our path. Good training is worth the cost (and to plug his MOAC course...take it if you get the chance...he should have several during the year, because there aren't a lot of slots open, and timing doesn't always work out for just the one...but I digress).

Not to diminish your background; take it and build on it, but recognize that it's entirely possible that errors are being practiced, that can be trained out. I have plenty of errors myself. Turns out it's a long road to iron them away, but that's half the fun.