I don't want to start a fight.

I am curious, because I'm considering buying a P210A. How significant are the differences in design. How much do they really matter (regardless of where the gun is manufactured), other than to the "purist"? Are they an improvement?

I've read about some of the changes not being that familiar with the original.

At what point does it cease being a P210 and you could ask the same of any renaissance of any "classic", "traditional" SIG design.

How wet is water? How black is the night sky? Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? Is it time to beat the dead horse again?

Read...decide...

https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...0601935/m/4350068334


https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...0601935/m/5760095544


https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...0601935/m/8030004544


https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...0601935/m/8960029634


https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...0601935/m/3150044634


https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...0601935/m/4230089034

Just the price difference alone is a huge advantage for the P210A. Most also prefer the American style magazine release vs. the European style heel release.

Go forth and be thee enlightened then...

Well, I guess that does it then. If you really want to beat a dead horse complain about the "search function".

Well, on the bright side, at least you attempted to use the search function. Most don't even bother to do a forum search, or to even contemplate the merit of their question or the validity of their comment as it has become all too easy to simply hit "Post Now".

As Mulder and Scully realized..."The truth is out there".

The mayor difference between old and new are the changed locations of the shaer areas for the slide/barrel interlock which is insignificant because the close cam path remained the same. Another minor change is the layout of the controls which became more ergonomically. I assume the steel types for the barrel and the mechanical parts has changed as well and are surface treated. Its probably changed to the steel types SIGSauer USA is using for decades already. If this change is significant can only be answered with calculations base on a kinematic scheme comparing the data with the physical material properies of the chosen materials.
Changes in the illusive "quality" can only be described by comparing the manufacturing specifications of the old and new type, and is something one has to have access to which I believe nobody who is active on the internet has or ever had.
Last but not least the safety. The old Swiss type does not have any internal safety except for a hammer safery notch, very old ones did not have this feature at all and went off when the pitol hit the floor. Withe the later Legend the firing pin safety was finally introduced and it became a feature of the US version as well, making it a much safer pistol to shoot then th original design of 1948.

quote:

Originally posted by OTD:
The mayor difference between old and new are the changed locations of the shaer areas for the slide/barrel interlock which is insignificant because the close cam path remained the same. Another minor change is the layout of the controls which became more ergonomically. I assume the steel types for the barrel and the mechanical parts has changed as well and are surface treated. Its probably changed to the steel types SIGSauer USA is using for decades already. If this change is significant can only be answered with calculations base on a kinematic scheme comparing the data with the physical material properies of the chosen materials.
Changes in the illusive "quality" can only be described by comparing the manufacturing specifications of the old and new type, and is something one has to have access to which I believe nobody who is active on the internet has or ever had.
Last but not least the safety. The old Swiss type does not have any internal safety except for a hammer safery notch, very old ones did not have this feature at all and went off when the pitol hit the floor. Withe the later Legend the firing pin safety was finally introduced and it became a feature of the US version as well, making it a much safer pistol to shoot then th original design of 1948.

Thank you! Detailed and helpful! I appreciate the response. So, the method or mechanism itself used for lockup is not different?

the methode is the same. The old one is using extra barrel lugs as a locking element, like in a 1911 or a SACM, the new one the battery like in a Webley 1906, MAS 1935S or any SIGSauer pistol. The key element, the original, most important SIG close cam path used for the controlled barrel swing down/up movement remains the same. The change from the old type locking element to the new one is most likely an economical decision without impact on functionality or accuracy.

OTD's responses pretty much answer your question. I'd just like to add FYI that I've been lucky enough to shoot a number of P210s of various origin and vintage, and currently own a 210A and a Legend, and I'd be very hard put to find a nickel's worth of difference between them. SIG Sauer did a spectacular job of updating this classic pistol so that it not only is a great shooter but is affordable for more people. This feeling seems to be shared by the majority of P210A owners in various forums.

Not really on topic -- I'm a military collector who likes Lugers. There's an Imperial P08 collector (J. Sill's forum) whose sig line is "if it's made after 1918, it's a replica".

We all know that many "real" Lugers were made after World War One. I wouldn't consider my 06/24 Bern military a replica. These Lugers are somewhat desirable, but certainly not rare Swiss variations.

I can barely afford one P210 -- a 95% original finish, pre-2005 Swiss military. Again, a common variation.

However, these pistols can never be called "replicas"! During my lifetime these pistols will always be more desirable/valuable than a new P210A.

If you plan on owning only one P210 and are un-awed by hardening "improvements", "additional" safety features or an "American style" mag release -- why not acquire a genuine Swiss P210.

I'm sure the P210A's are fine pistols but they aren't the "real thing" and for many (most?) collectors they will never be!

quote:

If you plan on owning only one P210 and are un-awed by hardening "improvements", "additional" safety features or an "American style" mag release -- why not acquire a genuine Swiss P210.I'm sure the P210A's are fine pistols but they aren't the "real thing" and for many (most?) collectors they will never be!

Thanks for the reply.

My questions are not really about collecting. I'm not much of a collector although sometimes the urge seems to strike.

The question of what makes a P210 a P210 or what makes a Luger a Luger is somewhat academic, but, as your post indicates, it does have practical impact.

My question was more how close to the original design are the American P210s and how much does it matter in terms of accuracy, one of the hall marks or the P210. How do they compare in the quality of parts, and the fitting of those parts.

You could argue that once original production ceases and the gun is discontinued, any gun produced after that, no matter how faithful to design, no matter how high the quality and attention to detail, even if it exceeds the original, it is still NOT the same and not of the same value.

But, I'm thinking more of quality and accuracy and less of collecting value.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: SIGWolf,

SIGWOLF, I haven't commented in your thread till now due to all the links to previous discussions. But I think I understand where you're coming from. Having owned several Swiss and German examples, I had the same questions, and I admit concerns, about the US produced P210A. I bought a US version late last year, frankly expecting the worst. To this point, I just have no gripe about the quality of the machine work inside and out, fit of barrel/slide/frame, trigger, reliability or accuracy. I guess we'll know in the next ~70 years, that the original 210s have had to prove themselves, about the long term durability of the US "replicas". I'll have to get back with you on that

Don't worry about the search function, every new discussion brings out new thought from new people. I put over 40,000 through my Legend and it is still going with only one hick about 250 rounds. Mine got more accurate around 6,000 rounds, could be me or the pistol. I hear they are good to 100,000 rounds and more so don't worry about wearing it out.

I like the safety lever of the P210A better than that of the older P210s. The Legend Super Target has P210A type safety lever.

The SIG SAO X-GUNS have an excellent safety lever decent mechanism - a spring loaded pivoting cam. Very positive detents, yet easy to flip the safety to either position without shifting your grip. I’d like to know if the P210A has that type of detent mechanism, but haven’t been able to find out.

Pipe smoker, the safety of my 210A is easy to push down/off safe, but to push the safety back up into the safe position feels like it takes a lot more effort. Others have reported similar. I can't easily do it without shifting my grip.....ymmv

This two issues plus reliablilty are the worries of people who are interested in buying the P210 since I am member of this forum.

1. Quality. There is a lot debates about this very issue but the problem in debating it, neiter SIG, nor SIGArms, nor SAN nor SIGSauer has ever communicated any specifications nor have there ever any specifications published in one of the various publications or reference books. So if somebody argues about differences in quality he is having „the magic touch“, which is BS in my opininon. The P210 has some neuralgic points but those issues have never shown up in any forums.
2. Accuracy. The specifications for P210 accuracy is a 100% hitting probablilty of 10 rounds in a square of 4“ x 6“ at 50meters (see Häusler). Everything better is a bonus. All P210 pistols are better. So when your demand is better then specs it´s more likely a gift you are getting but not a mandatory specification. How much you profit is in shooting a P210 depends on your own shooting skills as well. The P210 is pretty finky in this particuar case and shoots at the point it is pointed at, not where it is aimed at, It basically means, it does not make you a better shooter if you lack basic skills, That´s the curse of all pistols tuned in for precision shooting.
Last but not least, the world record in military sports pistol shooting is 598 score poinsts out of 600 shot with 60 rounds. Technically it´s possilble to achieve a 600/600 at 25meters BUT the problem is the design of the P210. The pistol is too slow for the rapid fire stage.
3. Reliability. The P210 is built to CIP and SAAMI spec ammunition and needs some impulse in oder to cycle reliably. What ammo works best is a matter of testing.

So if you want to worry about quality and accuracy, tell us what style of shooting you want to participate in and how much more score points you want to expect that will move your name to the top of the score list. A hint. I would start to worry about this issue when you are getting close to 580 out of 600 score points. This is from my experience a sporterized Swiss Army model. My score is in the range of lower 540 in military sports competition.
If it´s about quality, what particular part or parts group are you worried about that could be of different quality compared to the experience of the „collectors“ with „the touch“.

If I would not have my vintage sporter to wear out and a few other´s, I would not hesitate to buy the US version as a competition pistol.


@rock185. The stiffness of the old safety comes form the tenision of the lever. This part isent toward slighty toward the frame for more friction. It can be bent outwards a bit for less friction if it should be operated with the thumb only.

OTD, yes sir. That is exactly what I did with one of my Swiss P210s years ago to make moving the safety lever easier. I was commenting on the new style safety lever on the American P210A. The new lever position makes disengaging the safety easier than on the unmodified Swiss guns. But, for me at least, moving the American P210A lever back to the safe position requires some extra effort.

As a "shooter" my recent 210A is excellent and if anything goes bad, Sig's Warranty is in force and excellent.
Even in my hands, the 210A is an excellent shooter with very good fit/finish, imho, and compares very favorably with my older German Mastershop x5L1.
The 210A trigger is excellent out of the box for the target gun it was designed for.

If you're a "collector", a German/Swiss P-210 should be a decent future investment.

But I would be hesitant to use it as a daily/weekly/whatever range gun.

The 210-A fills that role for me nicely.