Interesting discovery for me while shooting my first HK pistol yesterday and today:

1) My HK P30L (9mm) is a fantastically accurate pistol.

2) My SP2022 (9mm) is essentially as accurate (perhaps a slight edge to the P30L...perhaps...).

3) One similarity I've noticed in those two is that when the trigger breaks (in either DA or SA) during dry-fire, the front sight stays put (that is, doesn't "bounce" or "jump" like some sort of sympathetic movement related to the trigger's break).

4) Every time I've pulled the trigger on any Glock during dry-fire, I've observed the front sight jump or bounce as mentioned.

5) I do not shoot Glocks (9mm or otherwise) as accurately as I do my P30L or SP2022.

6) I've observed that same front sight bounce in my P229 (9mm) and P220 (.45), both of which I shoot better than Glocks but worse than the P30L/SP2022, but DID NOT observe this sight bounce in my P239 (9mm) which I also shoot very accurately (nearly as well as the top two here).

7) I've noticed that, either due to grip size/design or trigger size/design, the triggers in my P30L, SP2022, and P239 all break "closer" to the webbing of my strong hand than my P229 or P220 (or even the many, many P226 I've held).

8) I've also noticed that my 1911 (Springfield Range Officer, stock, .45) exhibits no front sight bounce when the trigger breaks, and that too is a very accurate pistol for me.

9) The same is true of my Ruger LCR .38 as well as an old no-dash S&W 586.

10) I'm suspecting that, for my hands at least, for a pistol to be accurate for me, all other things being equal, I need to have a shorter (front to back) grip dimension which yields a shorter trigger reach, and the pistol should be hammer fired. For whatever reason, that seems to be the constant in the diverse pistols I have which shoot best for me. My P30L has the small backstrap with large side panels, and my SP2022 has the small backstrap, and with both pistols when the trigger breaks the tip of my trigger finger is far further around the side of the grip than in the pistols I shoot less accurately.

An interesting and informative couple of days for me. These observations will certainly dictate future pistol purchases, and may even lead to me selling off some (gasp!). Not a fan of having to wrestle out accuracy, especially when I'm learning what works/doesn't work for me.

Do your P-series Sigs have the short reach triggers in them?

quote:

Originally posted by Rustpot:
Do your P-series Sigs have the short reach triggers in them?

No. All of my SIGs have the stock, standard, "thicker" trigger, as I found the short-reach triggers tended to pinch the pad of my trigger finger when the trigger breaks.

I've noticed the same dry-fire "bounce" on several of my guns, Glock being the most noticeable. However, I never noticed a correlation between that and accuracy.

It is possible that the aforementioned "bounce" occurs AFTER the bullet has left the barrel. If so, then it wouldn't really matter.

Try dry firing your Glocks with snap caps.

quote:

Originally posted by dehughes:

3) One similarity I've noticed in those two is that when the trigger breaks (in either DA or SA) during dry-fire, the front sight stays put (that is, doesn't "bounce" or "jump" like some sort of sympathetic movement related to the trigger's break).

Trigger overtravel.

You need a little on a street gun for reliability, and you will adapt to it.

I read this thread with pretty healthy curiosity. This "sight bounce". Are we talking about the natural vibration that Glock's have that is notable through the sights during dry fire? If that is what we are talking about, some people are really confused thinking that dry fire or snap caps is going to magically take it out. It is just the design of the gun.

If that's the case, kudos to the OP for watching his sights hard enough in dry fire to notice.

I have also noticed the sight bounce in multiple striker fired handguns to varying degrees.

If you want to improve it on the Glock platform research the McNally triggers, they speak of this same thing in their videos.

I went the other way and traded out of my Glocks back into hammer fired Sigs because small grips and hammer fired work best for me.

quote:

Originally posted by JBP55:
Try dry firing your Glocks with snap caps.

Done it. Still observe the bounce.

quote:

Originally posted by exfed2001:

quote:

Originally posted by dehughes:

3) One similarity I've noticed in those two is that when the trigger breaks (in either DA or SA) during dry-fire, the front sight stays put (that is, doesn't "bounce" or "jump" like some sort of sympathetic movement related to the trigger's break).

Trigger overtravel.

You need a little on a street gun for reliability, and you will adapt to it.

That may be it. I haven't focused on that yet in comparison, though. As well, it may be a hand-geometry thing...the old "find a gun that YOU shoot well" deal...and I just shoot the SP2022 and P30L well.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I read this thread with pretty healthy curiosity. This "sight bounce". Are we talking about the natural vibration that Glock's have that is notable through the sights during dry fire?

Correct. It is observable, especially when lit (that is, when pointing the gun into a bright light).

quote:

If that is what we are talking about, some people are really confused thinking that dry fire or snap caps is going to magically take it out. It is just the design of the gun.

I figured it was either A) the design of the gun, or B) the result of something funky I was doing when pulling the trigger.

quote:

If that's the case, kudos to the OP for watching his sights hard enough in dry fire to notice.

I've been obsessing about how to improve my shooting, and since I don't have a red dot mounted on any of my pistols, I've taken to the old dime-on-front-sight thing, or the brass casing on front sight deal in order to pick up minute errors in my trigger press....but have found that during dry fire I can observe the front sight movement really well when they are front-lit.

Nope, you aren't doing anything wrong. Glocks have a nominal harmonic vibration when the striker falls that causes a slight vibration. I first got turned on to the "why" by Larry Vickers when he was talking about why I was having problems keeping a dime on the front sight during dry fire. When he explained it, it made perfect sense. It also makes sense why you (or I) don't see it with the hammer fired guns.

You can crank down as hard as you want on the gun. You can execute perfect trigger control. You can have perfect follow through. And the sight is going to move slightly.

Very cool!

This thread is going to help me get over a lot of aggravation. Thank you OP, and especially JL.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Nope, you aren't doing anything wrong. Glocks have a nominal harmonic vibration when the striker falls that causes a slight vibration. I first got turned on to the "why" by Larry Vickers when he was talking about why I was having problems keeping a dime on the front sight during dry fire. When he explained it, it made perfect sense. It also makes sense why you (or I) don't see it with the hammer fired guns.

You can crank down as hard as you want on the gun. You can execute perfect trigger control. You can have perfect follow through. And the sight is going to move slightly.

Very cool!

Maybe you posted this somewhere else, but if you don't mind, would you elaborate on what Larry Vickers told you about the Glock wiggle? I'm really curious now...having been forced to shoot Glocks for years now and always being frustrated by my inability to keep that front sight post perfectly still upon trigger break.

If you look at the difference in grip angle between a Glock 17/19/26 and the Sig P-series (including the P320), you’ll see that the Sigs are more upright. There is a lot of talk that the grip angle has a strong relationship with where and how well the web of the shooting hand not only fits the backstrap but remains stable from trigger pull to recovery for the next shot.

It may be that grip angle is the problem.