I was watching a Youtube video on 300 blackout ballistics and loads, and the guys were shooting copper or brass loads or something, and someone mentioned the law that no AP bullets cant be used in pistols, so if i have an AR Pistol, i cant shoot those through it. Of course i dont remember the video and can't seem to find it again

I cant find any other references for AP rounds through rifles vs. Pistols. Anyone have any references or anything on this?

Short answer...
AP rifle ammo is legal.
AP pistol ammo is not.

300BO is rifle ammo.

(for now I suppose. But since there's no huge stashes of surplus 300 ammo like military calibers, it's probably not at risk)

There's just a lot of "ammo that may be used in pistol" references that appears to make the so-called "ap" ammo illegal to make and sell, but not necessarily to shoot. so can I shoot whatever I want out of an AR pistol or do I need to avoid the solid-metal rounds?
It just seems like another one of those clusterfuck areas of BATFE laws.

Solid copper slugs are not defined as AP. A steel/similar CORE is required to be defined as AP.

A steel core is not required, AP is whatever the ATF says it is. They deemed PMC Ultramag as "AP", an all brass hollow bullet.

guys, is 50 caliber tracer and grey paint tipped 50 cal legal?? to sell

This is why ATF tried to ban M855, precisely for this reason (it can be used in AR pistols)

Oh my. So much misinformation.

The following is not legal advice...

Federal law defines Armor Piercing Ammunition as follows, in both 18 USC 921 as well as 27 CFR 478.11:

quote:

Projectiles or projectile cores which may be used in a handgun and which are constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or full jacketed projectiles larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. The term does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, frangible projectiles designed for target shooting, projectiles which the Director finds are primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectiles or projectile cores which the Director finds are intended to be used for industrial purposes, including charges used in oil and gas well perforating devices.

There are four Federal statutes that relate to armor piercing ammunition (as defined above).

First, Federal law in 18 USC 922(a)(7) and -(a)(8) regulates the manufacture, import, or sale of AP ammo by stating:

quote:

[It shall be unlawful—]
(7) for any person to manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition, unless—
(A) the manufacture of such ammunition is for the use of the United States, any department or agency of the United States, any State, or any department, agency, or political subdivision of a State;
(B) the manufacture of such ammunition is for the purpose of exportation; or
(C) the manufacture or importation of such ammunition is for the purpose of testing or experimentation and has been authorized by the Attorney General;

(8) for any manufacturer or importer to sell or deliver armor piercing ammunition, unless such sale or delivery—
(A) is for the use of the United States, any department or agency of the United States, any State, or any department, agency, or political subdivision of a State;
(B) is for the purpose of exportation; or
(C) is for the purpose of testing or experimentation and has been authorized by the Attorney General; 

Next, Federal regulations in 27 CFR 478.37 again reiterate the restrictions on the manufacture, importation, and sale of AP ammo, reading:

quote:

No person shall manufacture or import, and no manufacturer or importer shall sell or deliver, armor piercing ammunition, except:

(a) The manufacture or importation, or the sale or delivery by any manufacturer or importer, of armor piercing ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency or political subdivision thereof;

(b) The manufacture, or the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer, of armor piercing ammunition for the purpose of exportation; or

(c) The sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of armor piercing ammunition for the purposes of testing or experimentation as authorized by the Director under the provisions of § 478.149.

Also, there's a regulation against licensed dealers selling armor piercing ammo in 27 CFR 478.99(e):

quote:

(e)Transfer of armor piercing ammunition by licensed dealers. A licensed dealer shall not willfully transfer armor piercing ammunition: Provided, That armor piercing ammunition received and maintained by the licensed dealer as business inventory prior to August 28, 1986, may be transferred to any department or agency of the United States or any State or political subdivision thereof if a record of such ammunition is maintained in the form and manner prescribed by § 478.125(c). Any licensed dealer who violates this paragraph is subject to license revocation.

Finally, there's a specific federal law against using AP ammo during the commission of a crime, in 18 USC 929:

quote:

(a)
(1) Whoever, during and in relation to the commission of a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime (including a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime which provides for an enhanced punishment if committed by the use of a deadly or dangerous weapon or device) for which he may be prosecuted in a court of the United States, uses or carries a firearm and is in possession of armor piercing ammunition capable of being fired in that firearm, shall, in addition to the punishment provided for the commission of such crime of violence or drug trafficking crime be sentenced to a term of imprisonment for not less than five years.
(2) For purposes of this subsection, the term “drug trafficking crime” means any felony punishable under the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 801 et seq.), the Controlled Substances Import and Export Act (21 U.S.C. 951 et seq.), or chapter 705 of title 46.
(b) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the court shall not suspend the sentence of any person convicted of a violation of this section, nor place the person on probation, nor shall the terms of imprisonment run concurrently with any other terms of imprisonment, including that imposed for the crime in which the armor piercing ammunition was used or possessed.

Read all those statutes. Notice some things.

First, note that Federal law doesn't prohibit individuals from owning and possessing AP ammo, as long as they're not committing a violent crime or drug trafficking.

Additionally, note that the Federal definition of AP ammo is very specific about the composition of the AP bullet. If it's made from a different type of metal than those listed, it is not AP ammo, even if it performs similar to a projectile made from the metals listed. This is why you can find solid copper bullets for sale from ammo manufacturers, but not solid brass. Solid brass = AP; solid copper = Not AP

Also, note that Federal law does not prohibit shooting AP ammo, out of a handgun or otherwise. The "AP handgun ammo" portion is part of the federal definition of AP ammo, which defines which types of AP ammo are regulated under the previously mentioned federal AP ammo statutes - that is, AP ammo that can be used in a handgun.

Next, note that AP ammo that is not capable of being fired from a handgun doesn't fall under these federal laws. The catch is that if there has ever been a pistol produced in that caliber, the federal AP ammo restrictions apply, unless a specific "sporting purposes" exemption has been granted, like the ones granted to SS109/M855 5.56 or M2AP .30-06.

Finally, note that the federal prohibition against sale of AP ammo specifically applies to federally licensed dealers, manufacturers, and importers. This means that an unlicensed individual could sell their existing stockpile of AP ammo to their buddy. But an 01/02 FFL gun store cannot not sell its existing stock of AP ammo to anyone but the military or law enforcement. And an 06/07/08/10/11 FFL holder (which are licensed manufacturers and importers) cannot sell AP ammo to anyone but the military or law enforcement, or for certain testing purposes, or for export.

The prohibition against manufacture still applies to individuals, though. So an individual cannot manufacture new AP ammo that is capable of being fired from a handgun, even for personal use.


Also, keep in mind that your state or local jurisdiction may have additional laws regarding armor piercing ammo, with some states prohibiting its possession and use.

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For general fun reading...

"
The Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide - 2014 Edition (ATF P 5300.4) has been updated and the revised edition is now available. Updates to the 2014 edition include corrections of omissions and editing errors. Firearms Regulations Reference Guide – 2014 Edition (Revised 3-7-15)

NOTICE OF CORRECTIONS

March 7, 2015 On January 15, 2015, ATF posted the 2014 Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide (the “2014 Guide”) to the ATF website (www.atf.gov). ATF last published this guide in 2005; the 2014 Guide incorporates almost a decade of updates to the federal firearms regulations. Since posting the 2014 Guide, ATF became aware that it contained some inadvertent omissions and editing errors. ATF has corrected these omissions and errors in an update to 2014 Guide posted on March 7, 2014. The corrected omissions and editing errors are:
…

(2) At page 190, within the General Information section, the last two subparts of Item 10, Armor Piercing Ammunition, were not included. These subparts consist of: (a) the text of the 1994 amendment Congress made to the Gun Control Act’s (GCA) definition of armor piercing ammunition and, (b) a listing of the projectiles that have been granted exemptions to the GCA’s prohibition on armor piercing ammunition. These subparts are now included.

10.ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION
Under Federal law, it is unlawful for any person (including licensed importers and manufacturers) to import or manufacture armor piercing ammunition unless such manufacture is for a governmental agency, exportation, or testing/experimentation. See 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(7),(8); 27 CFR 478.37, 478.148. Licensed dealers may only transfer armor piercing ammunition to a governmental agency if the ammunition was received and maintained by the dealer as part of its business inventory prior to August 28, 1986. See 18 U.S.C. 923(e); 27 CFR 478.99(e).

The GCA defines the term “armor piercing ammunition” as:

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.”

Armor piercing ammunition includes the following:

KTW AMMUNITION, all calibers. Identified by a green coating on the projectile.

ARCANE AMMUNITION, all calibers. Identified by a pointed bronze or brass projectile.

THV AMMUNITION, all calibers. Identified by a brass or bronze projectile and a head stamp containing the letters SFM and THV.

CZECHOSLOVAKIAN manufactured 9mm Parabellum (Luger) ammunition having an iron or steel bullet core. Identified by a cupronickel jacket and a head stamp containing a triangle, star, and dates of 49, 50, 51, or 52. This bullet is attracted to a magnet.

GERMAN manufactured 9mm Parabellum (Luger) having an iron or steel bullet core. Original packaging is marked Pistolenpatronen 08 m.E. May have black colored bullet. This bullet is attracted to a magnet.

MSC AMMUNITION, caliber .25. Identified by a hollowpoint brass bullet. NOTE: MSC ammunition, caliber .25 identified by a hollowpoint copper bullet is not armor piercing.

BLACK STEEL ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION, all calibers, as produced by National Cartridge, Atlanta, Georgia.

BLACK STEEL METAL PIERCING AMMUNITION, all calibers, as produced by National Cartridge, Atlanta, Georgia.

7.62mm NATO AP, identified by black coloring in the bullet tip. This ammunition is used by various NATO countries. The U.S. military designation is M61 AP.

7.62mm NATO SLAP. Identified by projectile having a plastic sabot around a hard penetrator. The penetrator protrudes above the sabot and is similar in appearance to a Remington accelerator cartridge.

PMC ULTRAMAG, .38 Special caliber, constructed entirely of a brass type material, and a plastic pusher disc located at the base of the projectile. NOTE: PMC ULTRAMAG 38J late production made of copper with lead alloy projectile is not armor piercing.

OMNISHOCK. A .38 Special cartridge with a lead bullet containing a mild steel core with a flattened head resembling a wad cutter. NOTE:
OMNISHOCK cartridges having a bullet with an aluminum core are not armor piercing.

7.62x39mm with steel core. These projectiles have a steel core. NOTE: Projectiles having a lead core with steel jacket or steel case are not armor piercing. In addition, the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 added to the definition of armor piercing ammunition the following:"… a full jacketed projectilelarger than .22 caliber designedand intended for use in a handgunand whose jacket has a weight ofmore than 25 percent of the totalweight of the projectile."

Exemptions: The following articles are exempted from the definition of armor piercing ammunition.

5.56 mm (.233) SS 109 and M855 Ammunition, identified by a green coating on the projectile tip.

U.S. .30-06 M2AP, identified by a black coating on the projectile tip."

It sticks in my head that the AK "pistols" were used as grounds to block importation of steel core 7.62x39.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Watson:
It sticks in my head that the AK "pistols" were used as grounds to block importation of steel core 7.62x39.

Close.

AK-74 pistols in 5.45x39 were responsible for the ATF ending importation of cheap surplus 5.45x39 back in 2014. Since the surplus 7N6 5.45x39 ammo has a steel core, and it could be fired from a handgun, it was deemed to be "armor piercing" under Federal law.

But it was actually the Olympic Arms OA-93 AR(ish) pistol in 7.62x39 that had earlier caused the reclassification of surplus steel core 7.62x39 as "armor piercing" back in early 1994.

Olympic Arms caught quite a bit of flak over that, and rightfully so. They had been begged by various importers/retailers/manufacturers back in the early 90s not to produce their planned 7.62x39 pistol, and been warned that it would likely cause the end of the cheap surplus 7.62x39 ammo supply. Which it did.

Here's a photo of the culprit. (It was a commercial flop, not only because it was ugly and clunky, but also because the 1994 Assault Weapon Ban was implemented shortly after its release.)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RogueJSK,

Thanks for the info guys!

Reading all of this, I assume there is nothing defined as "AP" which shoots from a shotgun. Correct?

If it meets the components in the federal definition, both the metallic composition component as well as being able to be fired from a handgun, it is considered AP under federal law.

If it doesn't meet both components of the definition, it is not AP under federal law.

I could envision a shotgun round that would be considered armor piercing under federal law. Like a .410 slug made from solid steel or with a steel core, for example. Such a round would appear to meet both the composition component as well as having the ability to be fired from a handgun (like the Taurus Judge/S&W Governor).

But as far as I know, I don't believe there have been any 10/12/16/20/28/etc. gauge handguns available in the US. Seems like the various small pistol-like shotguns in those calibers are classified as NFA "Any Other Weapons" with tax stamps, and are not "handguns" according to the federal definition of a "handgun".

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RogueJSK,