So here we are in 2021 and itty bitty guns and pistol red dot sights are all the rage. I was thinking about pistol dots the other day and something popped into my head.

The vast majority of gunfights are fairly close range, quick and dirty affairs and very likely involve shooting from less then optimal positions. So technically speaking wouldn't a laser provide more real world practical benefit vs. a dot?

My thought is that a dot still requires you to draw and have a clean sight picture to use effectively. It removes having to line up two sights but still arguably works like a mechanical sight in aiming. (I know that is an over simplified statement, I am just trying to make the point that you have to aim the gun so to speak).

Now with the above in mind a laser projects your aiming point onto the target "physically" so to speak. This allows for shooting from sub optimal positions, holds etc. that technically are not possible with a dot sight.

So "ASSUMING" a fairly close range statistical norm for defensive gun fighting and the need to shoot from odd cover or positions does a laser not make more sense then a dot???????

Dots seem to provide a benefit in speed at intermediate to longer ranges, no???

As always I am just some jack wagon on the interwebz who knows shit about shit so I generally post/ask questions like this as something hits me and I don't have the practical knowledge or skill to make an educated answer for myself. So I like hearing from those who know.

take care, shoot safe,
Chris

Sounds logical to me.
I haven't shot in quite a long time because ammunition of course but I used to practice point shooting at fairly close range. Just simple draw and shoot quickly without using sights.
I never owned a laser on a pistol but I've seen them in action. I ditched the RMR and it's my fault for not practicing with it but again, ammunition was scarce.
The only drawback I can see with a laser is if it's not the type that comes on when you draw your pistol. I think Viridian (?) has the type that's instantly on when you draw. The light/laser combos I would think aren't made that way.

I have no idea personally. I rarely gunfight, and when I do I like to do it at extreme rifle ranges. But I have seen quite a few people try a laser in our pistol plate matches. The first stage is at 10y. Normally its a bust. They chase it to the point of being intolerably slow and with no accuracy. just an observation. I do know that IR laser at night under NV at distance is the way to go. FWIW
edited to add i have had rmr issues at matches and no dot and at short ranges just framing the target in the center of the window was accurate enough

Issues with lasers:

Visibility: Red are not bright enough to see in most daylight outdoor conditions. Green can be distractingly bright in some lower light conditions.

Switchology: How is your laser switched? Is it attached to a light or standalone? If it is attached to the light, is it activated with the light or via some weird multi-press switch? If grip activated, do you have the discipline and consistency in your grip to activate it reliably? Under stress? In austere positions? A red dot is theoretically always on.

Zero/Consistency: Most lasers that I have seen have relatively crude adjustment screws. The visibility issues above can contribute to making them harder to zero. Many pistols use polymer rails and rails of questionable spec that may not return to zero if the device is removed and reinstalled. With adjustment screws that are often recessed and don't have "click" adjustments, how do you know they haven't moved?

Offset: Lasers that are combined with a light or otherwise attach to the rail have a built-in mechanical offset. So do red dots. And iron sights. But the offset with a laser is often greater. Moreso, at many distances, sights and lasers are mutually exclusive things... If you're on the sights, you can't see the laser.

Durability: More of a concern with guide rod lasers, but many laser devices simply are not very durable. Every Lasermax guide rod laser I've seen has failed at some point. Laser Grips have been a mixed bag because of the ribbon cables that attach everything.

Holster Compatibility: Does your holster accommodate the laser? Many do not.

All of that said, they're not without their place. There are reasons, however, that visible lasers on handguns do not see large military and law enforcement use. In LE the biggest place for them is with a ballistic shield. For a bad breath distance scenario, I question whether somebody is better off trying to find a laser dot that is projected onto the guy and might be blocked by the gun itself versus using the back of the slide or optic window as a large, gross sighting system.

Just some thoughts.

I've experimented a lot, and a red dot works best for me at this point. As my vision changes, I'm sure I will adopt tools to meet my need.

A laser also work pretty well as an intimidation tool, assuming the BG's drugged-out brain realizes that his torso has just been painted. A customer of ours found that out first hand a few years back, when he was threatened in Pioneer Square, Seattle, after work when he was walking to his car. The laser on his BUG LCP proved to be quite effective that day; no shooting solution was necessary though I think he did find and leave for another job shortly afterwards.

I've more or less come around in my thinking about the RDS on pistols. Set up properly I think they're a godsend for my eyes. But mounted on factory plates on a gun that physically matches my EDC G23? Still not great. Adjusting my muscle memory with that particular RMR'd G19 has not been easy. I suspect that I have to go all-in with the G23 and it having a RDS, but it would need to have its slide milled for me to drop the optic down as low as possible in order to make that transition the least 'confronting' to the wiring in my brain and body. Practicing with the G19 MOS and still doing my (semi)regular training training with my EDC (ammo crisis, ya know...especially with .40) doesn't help one another.

I also will add: I used to think very negative things about Holosun and them being a product of the PRC. But using the 507C and particularly its circle-dot reticle on a pistol is a true revelation. I still may not like its country of origin, but they get props for coming up with one hell of a reticle.

I've had lasers but could never put enough training time on them. Every time I started to dry fire the cat thought it was a play time.

Not to digress, but I digress: You'll never meet a made in heaven combination like a J-frame and a CrimsonTrace Lasergrip.

OK, maybe peanut butter & chocolate in a Reese's cup, but the JFrame/CT runs a very close second.


Edited to add: "for dry fire practice."

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RichardC,

quote:

Not to digress, but I digress: You'll never meet a made in heaven combination like a J-frame and a CrimsonTrace Lasergrip.

The only guns I have with a laser are J-Frames with CT's and I agree they work very well.

I also want to add to this and my above that one STILL needs fundamentals to shoot lasers, dots or anything else. The tool has the ability of make a good shooter better but will not likely be a useful crutch for the inexperienced.

Chris

My experience with lasers on handguns is consistent with hrcjon's post. They do work well when using a shield but other than that, no benefit especially close in.

Just an observation from the cheap seats. Lasers kind of suck. Lights on the other hand don’t. Plus I have noticed that most of my wml on handguns are very centered along bore axis. Particularly those lights with a bright spot and less “wash”. Don’t know if those are correct terms. The center of the bright spot on most of my wml lines up quite well with sights, ie, using your philosophy you might be better off with a bright ass light and shoot to the hot spot. It’s pretty close and way faster than hunting for the laser. I’ve watched guys at matches using red lasers and it’s laughably bad usually. I’m just watching and the laser is hard to find/follow.

quote:

Originally posted by monoblok:
A laser also work pretty well as an intimidation tool,

Dear goodness, don't, just don't.
This is one of the single worst pieces of advice you can give or get aside from the "Clack Clack" speech. Never pull a firearm to use as an intimidation factor. Why? Because it rarely works. And now you have just placed the liability on you for escalating a fight with a firearm.

As to reality of lasers, "bad breath distance" and whatever, we as gun owners tend to fabricate answers for whatever the question is that we want to pose. Lasers suck. Period. (Unless you are running NODS) So, when we want the answer to be "laser" we create a question that is beyond the reason of logic to make the question fit by creating an instance that seemingly there is only one answer.

FACT of the matter is I have never understood the obsession that some have about being "average" or training for average. That is the basis of statistical gunfighting. We place all kinds of stock in the fact that they mystical bad guy is going to essentially punch us "just like this" like a bad karate lesson. Actual statistics tell us that we won't likely ever need a gun. We ignore that statistic. Why? Because we don't want to become a statistic. But, we do want to train to follow statistics to answer some gear question.

IE- If you are too close to use a RMR, you are too close to use a laser. You tend to search for the dot before pulling the trigger. Flat paper on a square range tends to lull people into a false sense of security that a laser will perform like this or that. Actual training on all of this tells us that if I have time to use a laser, I can use a red dot sight faster. If I am in some weird position, I'm not going to try to find the dot and shoot. If I have that kind of time, I'm going to use the sights. Or, most likely, I'm going to use the sights anyway.

Speed shooting is speed shooting is speed shooting. Just because you are using a defensive application doesn't change the progression of what you need to do to be successful. If you time lined out with touching the gun on one side and firing on the other, you have a set amount of time. There are things based upon training that you can choose to do in that time. One is use the sights. You can choose to do that (I will concede that if you are shooting from retention you won't use sights) based upon your training or choose to not do it based upon lack of training. But, even in very fast instances, you can choose to aim the pistol.

We just generally throw our hands up, claim there isn't time, and gravitate toward a gadget to "fix" it.

Add shooting through glass (and potentially in the rain, snow, fog, and dust to my long list from above. That beam has got to be able to get to the target.

Intimidation factor? No. Anecdotally? Maybe. Any actual data? None.

Another thought: multiple people with lasers = beam confusion.

As always, appreciate the input.

Take care, shoot safe
Chris

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:


OK, maybe peanut butter & chocolate in a Reese's cup

Too much carbs. Leads to unnecessary girth. Or size.

I know everybody says must have CT on a J, but I found such a low utility from lasers that I took CTs off and replaced them with smaller and more concealable Hogue.

Laser utility story. Once upon the time I forgot to turn on the Eotech on my PCC and discovered that after the start beep. I have a CT rail master, a green one, easy to activate with support hand. I decided to keep shooting that stage with laser until some lull when I could turn Eo on without time losses. That lull came much sooner than expected cause I couldn't see that laser.
They are literally useless in daylight.

I won't have such gadgets on a pistol, and that's not gonna change.

The only thing I've remotely contemplated putting a laser on is my Mossberg Shockwave.

Put me in the “lasers suck” camp.

Got a deal on a CT grip for my P229. Like good enough to be able to sell at used price and get my money back. So I put it on and tried it. I was better with a “flash sight picture” or target focused shooting or point shooting or whatever you want to call it than the dot. At range, I could line up sights properly and get through 3 shots before I even found the dot, much less chase it around.

I like my optic on my carbine, but I haven’t quite bought into pistol dots yet. And at this point, I’m mostly doing pocket carry of a P365, so I don’t want anything to make it bigger.

There are big upsides to visible lasers when used with a ballistic shield as well as from some austere positions where you just can't get a proper sight picture. That's about it.

IR lasers under night vision are another story.

I have a couple laser sights lying around, but they don't get much use. They amplify small movement too much. You end up being visually confused by an erratic, bouncing dot. With an RDS the dot floats smoothly over the target.

I won't say lasers are useless under the right circumstances, but for the moment I'm not into them.