SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  SIG Pistols    Navy SEAL vs. Army Green Beret- the Full Send drill (video)
Page 1 2 
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Navy SEAL vs. Army Green Beret- the Full Send drill (video) Login/Join 
Lead slingin'
Parrot Head
Picture of Modern Day Savage
posted
Several years ago I took a home defense/ low light class at my indoor gun club. First the classroom portion of the class followed by live firing on the range. The windows facing the lobby were tightly covered, all lights in the 25 yard 12 lane bay were turned off, and the only light came from an emergency exit sign hanging over the door, 90° offset to the firing range. Surprisingly, with our eyes adjusted to the low light we could see maybe as far as 10 or 12 yards. A couple of the lanes had been preset up with cardboard barricades.

I had worked the night before at the end of a long week of shift work, and had only been able to grab a couple hours of sleep before the class.

The instructor had the students place their ammo and mags. on the loading table maybe 12' behind the firing line. Unexpectedly, he instructed us to run in place. I'm at that age where I need a little stretching time before working out, and my cardio could have been better, so running in place and starting from cold damn near killed me. Then after @ 2 minutes he had us run to the loading station, jam rounds into our respective mags., and then point to two students at a time and shouted "go, go, go, hustle, hustle, faster" and once we reached our shooting lane we drew our guns from holsters, loaded the mag, and engaged our target, firing the entire mag.

I understood that he was trying to simulate the physical and mental stress we might face in a real world home defense situation in the dark... but, not expecting to ever have to load mags. in the dark before engaging an attacker, I never did understand the purpose of having to load mags. first, unless it was to demonstrate a reduction in fine motor skills. Personally, although I was huffing and puffing, I didn't have too much of a problem loading my mags.

I could maybe see how the Full Send drill might have some use for those in LE, but I'm not sure it has too much of a practical application for non-LE, unless you really start to get creative in thinking up scenarios...

... but these guys are entertaining, so I give you the Full Send drill.

@ 7 minute video


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_JAcoHUlV0
 
Posts: 6751 | Location: the Centennial state | Registered: August 21, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted Hide Post
I admit that during my young days I was a member of the “Ha! Let’s see how they handle this” crowd when designing drills for various types of training. In time, though, it finally dawned on me that whatever students are required to do should have a definite instructional purpose, and not merely to entertain the instructor(s) and (maybe) knock the student’s ego down a notch or two. Sometimes it’s difficult to objectively answer the “Is this valid?” question, but very often it’s easy to identify the stuff that’s just silly.

It’s interesting that you mention having to load a magazine as part of an exercise because I ran across something similar when researching law enforcement sniper qualifications. One I found required the shooter to run up, get into position and then load the rifle with loose cartridges. I’m still trying to understand why anyone would do that in a real mission. Does it add stress? Yes, but can’t we think of more realistic stressors to incorporate into the activity?




7/93
 
Posts: 45719 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted Hide Post
Most of these “drills” are about likes, clicks and views to be honest.




www.opspectraining.com

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 36032 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
I admit that during my young days I was a member of the “Ha! Let’s see how they handle this” crowd when designing drills for various types of training. In time, though, it finally dawned on me that whatever students are required to do should have a definite instructional purpose, and not merely to entertain the instructor(s) and (maybe) knock the student’s ego down a notch or two. Sometimes it’s difficult to objectively answer the “Is this valid?” question, but very often it’s easy to identify the stuff that’s just silly.

It’s interesting that you mention having to load a magazine as part of an exercise because I ran across something similar when researching law enforcement sniper qualifications. One I found required the shooter to run up, get into position and then load the rifle with loose cartridges. I’m still trying to understand why anyone would do that in a real mission. Does it add stress? Yes, but can’t we think of more realistic stressors to incorporate into the activity?


Ha, yeah it took me a while to redirect the mad scientist in my drill creations as well. I think we all suffer from trying to make something crazy, especially at first. I have thankfully moved on to what is the learning objective.
 
Posts: 2767 | Location: Pnw | Registered: March 21, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I Deal In Lead
Picture of Flash-LB
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
Most of these “drills” are about likes, clicks and views to be honest.


I agree. There's some pretty stupid stuff coming out and I've been thinking the Instructors are having a competition to see who can come up with the most worthless "drills".
 
Posts: 9351 | Location: Gilbert Arizona | Registered: March 21, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Unknown
Stuntman
Picture of bionic218
posted Hide Post
I don't know enough to say anything about the validity of the drill, but I was impressed by the trigger control of the SEAL guy and the malfunction clearing of the SF guy.
 
Posts: 10524 | Location: missouri | Registered: October 18, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lead slingin'
Parrot Head
Picture of Modern Day Savage
posted Hide Post
Over the years I've toyed with the idea of working towards certification as a firearms instructor. My gun club used to offer a handgun instructor certification class once every year, conducted over a period of a few months, on specific designated weekend days. I believe there was a minimum number of students required before the class would be held.

For various reasons, I never got around to taking it, and I don't think there was much interest in it, as they dropped it from their class list after a few years.

I'm certain there must be specific required training and drills for students in police academies, but I'm wondering about training non-LE students. For those of you who are firearms instructors, is there any instructor level training or guidance given on how to design drills for students, or is that left up to individual instructors to decide?
 
Posts: 6751 | Location: the Centennial state | Registered: August 21, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
What kind of shitty ammo was he using? Jeez.
 
Posts: 5258 | Registered: June 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Many years ago, Jeff Cooper attended a LE training session. The instructor told him that he should use one 1911 magazine and loose ammo to be "fair" to the agency's revolver shooters.

A stress test for SWAT here includes run, jump, climb, field strip, reassemble, load and shoot. But it is a stress test, not tactical instruction.
 
Posts: 3088 | Location: Florence, Alabama, USA | Registered: July 05, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I did quite a bit of shoot / move stuff but never involved loading a magazine during the drill. And for a stress drill, I had them drag a rescue dummy while shooting to cover the rescue. Both as a two man drill (one shoots, one drags) and as a single man.


End of Earth: 2 Miles
Upper Peninsula: 4 Miles
 
Posts: 13841 | Location: Marquette MI | Registered: July 08, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Loading ammo into a mag under stress seems about the most useless drill ever. Running a 100 yard sprint and shooting seems like a very valid drill.
 
Posts: 5258 | Registered: June 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Stress varies by individual and by degree. Some types of induced stress may be valid when used in conjunction with a firearms training scenario. Regardless, I’d have to consider reloading an empty mag with loose rounds to be in the Nutty Putty zone.

For civilian training anyway, intentionally manufacturing stress in students should be beyond the scope of the training. For a number of reasons:

1) Students already are subjected to various types of internal and external stress simply by being in the course. Group scenario with strangers, unfamiliar activities, fear of the unknown, fear of failure, use of live deadly weapons, etc.

2) Given the preceding environment, SAFETY is the main concern. In over 25 years of teaching, I’ve seen an occasional student do utterly stupid, inexplicable things. Fortunately, we have always had one-on-one coaching when students are on the line. Besides helping students learn better, it also provides an extra margin of safety.

3) Our SD courses always featured two straightforward scenarios (mild stress) simulating (a) Engaging multiple assailants from a barricade (home/street) and multiple assailants with no cover/concealment (street). While most handle it well, occasionally one would have a giant brain fart.

While good, well thought out drills can serve a purpose, I’m Old School. Hammered into me since the Seventies…fundamentals…fundamentals…fundamental. That’s what will stay with you when the SHTF. Just my two cents.

P.S. Annecdote. One of our street scenarios used a life size 3-D female target with big boobs and an UZI. It was the first target and was four feet away from the shooter at the start. ALL 10 males shot AROUND it at the other targets. The two FEMALE shooters blew the crap out of it and then engaged the others. Go figure.


______________________
An expert is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing. --Nicholas Murray Butler
 
Posts: 4554 | Location: Northeast | Registered: June 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of huskerlrrp
posted Hide Post
At the Area 3 match some years ago (Hornady range) they had a couple targets (2 or 4, I can't remember) at ~50 yards that could be engaged at that distance and another shooting point at around 7 yards. So it was the shooters choice to engage from the longer distance at the slower cadence and potential lower scores or sprint and hose them down. I was most entertained at peoples perception of how fast they were. I heard one guy say, "I figure a 4 second 40 yard dash, so it could be beneficial to make the run." I sure ain't doing a 4-40 with my old fat @ss and paratrooper knees (or ever, who am I kidding) so I took the long shot. Smile
Anyway, it's just a game but it's interesting to observe people's "tactics" and decision making.


 
Posts: 1750 | Location: North Cackalacky | Registered: September 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
is there any instructor level training or guidance given on how to design drills for students ...?


Yes and no.

I attended NRA instructor training courses for law enforcement handgun and patrol rifle quite a few years ago, so things may have changed, but most of the course consisted of the students running drills themselves. Very often the classes were split into shooter and coach, but that was to give the coaches experience with acting in that role. We did of course learn about drills from running them ourselves, but beyond certain structural requirements for lesson plans as I recall there wasn’t a lot of discussion of design other than that drills and exercises should incorporate as many different training topics as possible to get maximum benefit from the time, ammunition, etc.

That was the one thing that the instructors had my group address when we submitted our end of course exercise plan for review. I.e., as originally designed it was pretty simple, so we added some extra elements. As for the training value of the various exercises the other groups developed, one I remember in particular was a “battlefield pickup” exercise in which trainees had to run up to a gun lying on the ground, pick it up, clear any malfunctions such as having a dummy round in the chamber, and fire a number of shots. My gun was a 1911, something I’d had only limited experience with years before, but I still managed to get it going okay. Although it was a fun exercise, in retrospect I have never seen much practical value in it. Such an exercise might be valid for military special operators, but for law enforcement officers—? Nah. (IMO, of course.) But the value of the exercise wasn’t challenged by the instructors. It seemed that if the lesson plan met certain structural requirements, that’s all that mattered.

Most of what I try to do when designing drills and exercises is based on personal experience and my training philosophy that has developed over the years. One of the things that was drummed into us instructors at the Army intelligence school was that students should be taught what they actually need to know to perform their jobs or other tasks. That philosophy has stuck with me (mostly, anyway) ever since.




7/93
 
Posts: 45719 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lead slingin'
Parrot Head
Picture of Modern Day Savage
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Nipper:
Stress varies by individual and by degree. Some types of induced stress may be valid when used in conjunction with a firearms training scenario. Regardless, I’d have to consider reloading an empty mag with loose rounds to be in the Nutty Putty zone.


Thinking on it a little more in regards to the mag loading part of the drill in the class I took... and in trying to cut the instructor a little slack, it's possible that he included the mag loading in the drill to teach to the lowest common denominator of students. Students, less experienced in shooting, that have made the decision to not only keep the gun unloaded at home, but the magazine(s) unloaded as well. Maybe they've got small children in the house, maybe rebellious teens, break-ins in the neighborhood etc...

I can't recall for certain, as several of the classes I took had prerequisite classes that needed to be passed before enrolling, but I think this class only required that a student to have fired 1000 + rounds before enrolling, and that's obviously on the honor system, so some of the students may have been relatively green.

As absolutely wrong-headed and dangerous I think that practice is, especially considering the remedies available, learning how to quickly load mags in the dark with your heart pounding suddenly takes on a new sense of urgency when an attacker is near.

Speaking for myself, if I have a defensive gun ready for use then the mags are always loaded.

quote:

...

P.S. Annecdote. One of our street scenarios used a life size 3-D female target with big boobs and an UZI. It was the first target and was four feet away from the shooter at the start. ALL 10 males shot AROUND it at the other targets. The two FEMALE shooters blew the crap out of it and then engaged the others. Go figure.


Big Grin
 
Posts: 6751 | Location: the Centennial state | Registered: August 21, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Lead slingin'
Parrot Head
Picture of Modern Day Savage
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:

...

Most of what I try to do when designing drills and exercises is based on personal experience and my training philosophy that has developed over the years. One of the things that was drummed into us instructors at the Army intelligence school was that students should be taught what they actually need to know to perform their jobs or other tasks. That philosophy has stuck with me (mostly, anyway) ever since.


sigfreund once again, thanks for taking the time to answer my question. Yet more interesting info for me to crunch on.
 
Posts: 6751 | Location: the Centennial state | Registered: August 21, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Laugh or Die
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
Most of these “drills” are about likes, clicks and views to be honest.


lol did you not watch the video? That's pretty much the whole thing. It's literally a SEAL and Green Beret messing with each other.

"I made up this drill to look cool"


________________________________________________

Jester814 on YouTube
 
Posts: 10098 | Location: NC | Registered: May 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Laugh or Die
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:
What kind of shitty ammo was he using? Jeez.


He was using some see through mags. No idea what brand but that's what my money'd be on


________________________________________________

Jester814 on YouTube
 
Posts: 10098 | Location: NC | Registered: May 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
Yet more interesting info for me to crunch on.

With that I must now complicate things by adding the caveat that my simple statement isn’t the entire extent of my belief and practices about the subject of teaching people “what they need to know.”

For example, when I present the classroom portion of the patrol rifle operator course I give to everyone in my agency who is issued an AR-15 type rifle, one of the things I do is explain how the weapon functions mechanically when fired. Part of that in turn is to explain what the gas tube does. Now, does a law enforcement officer need to know what the function of the gas tube is in order to fire the gun efficiently and accurately? Obviously not, and there are probably countless AR owners who don’t really know how they work in detail: put cartridges in this box, put loaded box here, pull and release this thing, manipulate this lever, pull the trigger until it stops going bang, repeat as desired.

I nevertheless believe that if for no other reason than for officers to understand that the weapon isn’t just a mysterious black box that produces a certain result if the proper inputs are made, a bit of explanation of how it all works is important. In recent classes I’ve been able to show a bolt with a lug that’s broken off and missing as a way of demonstrating why inspecting the parts when we clean the gun is important and therefore why it’s important to clean the gun after every time it’s fired. That in turn leads to a demonstration of how the bolt fits and locks into the barrel extension and therefore why it’s important to not forget to install the cam pin after cleaning.

None of those things relates directly to being able to fire the gun at a bad guy if necessary, and I’m not sure I would have been able to justify that level of instruction to an academic review board at the Army Intelligence Center and School decades ago, but I’m no longer subject to academic review boards and therefore I can teach what I want.
Including how the guns we issue work, and not just how to work them.




7/93
 
Posts: 45719 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jester814:
quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola:
What kind of shitty ammo was he using? Jeez.


He was using some see through mags. No idea what brand but that's what my money'd be on


It might be the ammo too. He also had malfunctions with his pistol/carbine/rifle whatever you want to call it. Even if was shooting Winchester white box, its amazing how many malfunctions he had. It was to the point I would have taken that gun out of service until I figured out why.


 
Posts: 5077 | Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA | Registered: February 27, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2  
 

SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  SIG Pistols    Navy SEAL vs. Army Green Beret- the Full Send drill (video)

© SIGforum 2022