|Res ipsa loquitur|
I would say VP9 all the way! I didn’t really like them at first but after buying my wife the VP9L and put the RMR on it I can’t miss anything sadly I now shoot that better then any other gun I own…
Arex Delta is another option.
|Raised Hands Surround Us|
Three Nails To Protect Us
Already have a 320 and it is a treat.
I have to say I am intrigued by the new Springfield Echelon. I gripe a bit they are made in Croatia but I enjoyed my time in Croatia and would not mind to have a gun made there.
Have a bunch of Croatian AK mags.
We see trauma in our sleep, we just need to find some peace.
But we smile because we’re brave but there’s a war inside our brain.
We’re a soldier in a battlefield, just trying to find our way.
Got an army right behind me and I pray that we’re all saved.
And I pray we win this battle and we fight another day.
M&P 2.0 or CZ P10.
Do not send me to a heaven where there are no dogs.
Step Up or Stand Aside: Support the Troops !
Expectations are premeditated disappointments.
For an optics ready pistol, I went with the P320 VTAC, FN509 MRD and Shadow Systems MR920. Direct mount of Delta Point Pro or RMR for all. I like/prefer direct mount.
The MP uses a plastic plate from the factory, but worked ok.
The VP9 mounting plates are expensive and don’t come with the gun. The Holosun SCS will direct mount. The VP is just bulky and the least comfortable gun to shoot, followed by the Walther. Too damn snappy for what they are.
Walther PDP - they will send you a plate, but make sure you get a Gen 2 slide cut.
FN509 - good mount, great gun, no additional plates needed, but if you mount a Holosun optic the RMR screws don’t work well.
Shadow Systems guns if you don’t like Glock. Their mounting system is absolute ROCK solid. Best of them all, IMO and the guns are so much nicer than Glock. The gun is what a Glock should be.
I like Glock despite its flaws. Easy to work on and there's HUGE support almost anywhere you look. But if you want something that doesn't scream for tweaks and tuning right out of the box, I'd heartily say the Canik TP9SF series or the updated Mete family. Shadow Systems DR920 or DR920L. Beretta APX-A1. M&P9 2.0 with the updated trigger shoe.
I like how well I shoot the VP9 shoots myself, and the PDP and prior PPQ are pretty close as well, but a common complaint is that their lightness and relatively tall bore contribute to excessive muzzle flip. I think that my own experiences with muzzle rise with both are also at least partly due to my ever weakening hand strength, small hands or a bit of both. Neither is a gun I can shoot particularly fast with effective accuracy because I do indeed experience more muzzle rise with both than with any of the guns in the earlier list above. that takes time and effort to recover from and get back onto target with, but I can shoot them pretty accurate otherwise at a more leisurely pace (i.e., no effective mag dumps from me). YMMV, but spending some time with range rentals would solve this question for you.
Then there's the CZ P-10F and midsized P-10C. My reliability experience with the P-10C and CZ-USA's lack of success in fixing its non-resetting trigger has been abysmal. It's likely an outlier among a sea of otherwise dependable examples, but that was my experience and I'm not likely to ever recommend one of these to anyone after that regretful waste of effort and time. Bad taste like that doesn't wash away with mouth wash. Or Hoppe's. Also, early on there was some reports of cracking frames, but I don't how legitimate any of those claims actually were because it didn't seem like a very widespread problem even when I came across those few internet posts during the gun's first year on the market. One thing does seem clear however; the gun doesn't the attention that it once did. It's not been that great of a seller for our shop after its first couple of years of early demand. Haven't figured out why, but I think the next gun below probably played a huge role in stealing the limelight.
Finally for me there's the P320. I tend to like how well I shoot it as well. Decent trigger; not the best but certainly nowhere close to being the worst (that's Glock among this crowded bunch). It's not a gun that I would trust to safely carry without a thumb safety, except I don't like thumb safeties after all of these decades of shooting and carrying Glocks. I do own several and I find them reasonably enjoyable to shoot, but I do notice more muzzle flip with them as well though not to the extent that I've experience with HK or Walther. The modularity bag of tricks makes this a real enthusiast's type of gun; fairly easy to work on (unless you tinker with the fire control group), and incredibly flexible to customize in all sorts of sizes and form factors.
For me after Glock, Canik's offerings are the ones that I find the most compelling. For me it's Canik and not Walther that offers the most superior trigger action in the striker world. Frankly I'd put my TP9SF ECE's striker trigger up against any Shadow 2's single-action pull and reset; it's that good. Even the budget-minded examples have seriously excellent trigger actions. Being a trigger whore that I am, that makes them THE no-brainer for me.
I really like my P320 with a Holosun on it.
I would go with the VP9 OR or VP9L OR for a Full size striker fired, optics ready 9mm handgun.
VP9's are accurate and usually very affordable online anywhere.
For me, H&K is the highest quality polymer of any of the high volume mass-production guns on the market from any major manufacturer, including Glock, SIG, S&W, Ruger, Turk guns, Eastern Europe imports, etc etc.
I also like that H&K supports their gun line, keeps making at least a good number of its old models, as in USP, USP compact, P2000, P30, SP5/HK94 for now, *LOOKING AT YOU SIG*
I also like that over the last 20 years+ H&K keeps innovating (I also like SIG for that) .....while say Glock has mostly rested on their laurels for the most part. (compare say Canik to Glock even....)
My Gen 3 Glock 32 from 2003 is as good as any new Glock made.
SIG/H&K/Steyr/and others have now developed things that have helped the whole polymer industry advance like grip panels/FCU's/more modularity, etc etc.
I have a VP9 from 2016.
I love that gun, really easy to shoot, very accurate, no failures even with "crappy" ammo, and cheap to boot.
VP9 insides to me look extremely tough and are different than the P30 as far as how the rails and slide work together.
I also have a VP9 OR slide with threaded barrel and raised sights and a V9L OR slide.
This makes it simple slide change from no optics to short barrel optics ready with co-witness sights to long barrel optics ready (OR) etc.
VP9L OR slide is excellent for target shooting or as a nightstand gun, as is the regular and raised sights OR slide with threaded barrel-which obviously can handle certain applications as well.
Right now I've seen HK's discounted or having a sale at online stores recently
I would check gun.deals and wikiarms.com or their apps or even just a search engine.
H&K has lifetime warranty, I doubt you'll have to use it though.
|and this little pig said:|
"I do believe the PDP has the optics cut on the slide"
The PDP does have a cutout for an optic sight, and, they do offer free plates for certain optics. They did not have one for the particular optic I had, but sent me to a third party who could sell me one!
|Looking at life |
thru a windshield
Also a big Walther fan, PPS and PPQ excellent in all regards, I was also never a fan of Glocks, great guns I just did not shoot them well unless I really concentrated.
I picked up a PSA Dagger threaded barrel, lightened slide, and optic cut all for under $290 without mags. They have the full size and compact both with parts interchangeability with Glock 19. The grip is hands down better for me than the Glock, super accurate and reliable. Some complain about the trigger but feels good to me, not as good as a Walther. Lots of upgrade options.
Just have to watch for their deals, I got the frame for $49 and the slide for $179, tax and transfer fee, under $300
|quarter MOA visionary|
Yes, the Walthers are nice- the PPQ and the PDP are descendants of the P99. Walther's Dynamic Performance Trigger is the balls. A hundred and eighty bucks well-spent.
Factory RMR cut Glock 45.
I own the M&P 2.0, VP9, and P320 Compact. I also just purchased a Springfield Armory Echelon last month.
I prefer the M&P over the others because of the ergos, recoil profile, price of spare mags, and aftermarket support (night sights, holsters, Apex, etc.).
In my collection, the VP9 is a close second. The trigger is slightly superior to the M&P (less initial takeup, crisper break, slightly more positive reset), but the grip is slick, mags are expensive, and aftermarket support is just okay.
I've not shot a Walther PDP, and I chose the VP9 over the PDP at the gunshop, but I can't tell you that I don't regret it just a little. The PDP's that I've handled at the gunshop have been super impressive. The PDP with the 4-inch barrel and full-size grip is a piece of work.
Springfield built an impressive handgun with the Echelon, especially its advanced optics mounting system and fantastic ergos. I don't have an optic mounted yet, but after 300 rounds, it's been reliable. No complaints. It's worth a look, too. Good luck!
|Jack of All Trades, |
Master of Nothing
Shadow Systems is the latest contender. Looked at them at my LGS today and spent a lot of time swapping out backstraps, attaching mag funnels etc. I found that with the H backstop in place the gun really fits my hand and points naturally for me. Something that no Glock has ever done for me. Trigger still feels a little, "Meh."
VP9, I discovered that I would need to get then were B version with the button mag release rather than the older paddle style. The undercut of the trigger guard fits my hand a lot better.
Did fondle an M&P 2.0 today that was the metal frame, and of intrigued by it. The unreliability of my 4" 10mm M&P has kind of left a bad taste in my mouth for Smith & Wesson, but I remind myself my current M&P 40 has been flawless for a lot of years and my Shield .45 was flawless as well.
Then there's the Sig 320. Feels a little top heavy and bulky for a 9mm. Then I remember how well I shoot my X Ten and that feeling kind of goes away.
Still looking, no hurry, at east until the PFD comes in or one of my 3 pistols currently on consignment sells...
My daughter can deflate your daughter's soccer ball.
I have a few VP9 pistols, standard VP9-B and x2 VP9L,(one a "B" and the other a standard). For the standard model, I sanded down the trigger groove in the trigger guard until it was smooth and it made all of the difference for me. The groove always seemed to irritate my trigger finger so it had to go. Anyway, the "B" models are really nice. I bought the "B" frame from Omaha Outdoors and bought a VP9L Slide kit,(was much cheaper than buying the complete gun), from another vendor but the prices are going up on them for whatever reason.
You will need a plate for a rds on Vp9,which run around $40 a plate/adapter but I have to say, they are nice operating guns.
I also have a S&W M&P 5" pistol in FDE and really like the overall feel of it and the grip of the M&P pistols. While it is not optic ready, the newer "Plus" models are quite nice. The Competition model is really nice and the Plus trigger is a great improvement on an already great gun.
I had a P320 M17 but I didn't care for the short trigger pull/reset. I have no quams about it other than I just don't feel comfortable with it. I do appreciate what Sig did with the platform and having the ability to swap grip modules to many types. That is a bonus.
I have a FN 509T which I really like and FN supplies everything you will need for any optic on the market included with the gun. Granted they are a little more pricey than the other guns but not by much. Some people complain about the trigger but I have had no issue with it and it is quite accurate. Also has the ability to add whatever attachment to the barrel- suppressor, comp.,etc., as it is threaded. Having night sights are another plus as it is easier for me to line up the irons with the white outline around the tritium vials.
I also liked the Shadow Systems guns but a few ffl dealers by me have quite a few used/trade in models in their used gun cases and it doesn't sit right with me. I don't know if they were unreliable/problem guns or people just didn't care for them. One dealer I spoke with had taken in 2 SS guns a CR920 and a DR model, I don't remember which one exactly. Supposedly I was told the original owner traded both in on some Caniks Meta guns. While I have no experience with them, the Caniks seem to have a good following and track record. I held a couple and have to say they fit my hand quite nicely.
As far as optics go, you have your choice but you just have to figure out what you want in them- window size, always on vs. shake-awake, red or green dot,etc.. I am still trying to decide if I like them, optic sights, and bought a few of the less expensive models because of it-Holosun 507 and Viridian RFX 35. The Holo is nice in that you don't have to remove the sight to replace the battery but the RFX is nice as it has a larger window like the Trijicon SRO. The Holo is red and the Viridian is green,can't decide which I like more.
|The wicked flee when |
no man pursueth
What are you intending to do with the gun?
Is it a range toy, a gun for LE duty, or something you plan on carrying concealed?
I own most of the guns that have been mentioned here and was in charge of handgun procurement for my PD. We ultimately chose the S&W M&P 2.0 OR after two years of testing. That was based primarily on reliability, shootability, and factory support. My department (160 sworn) has issued a M&P of varying flavor since 2008 and it has been a fantastic platform for us. I can count the issues we've had on the fingers of one hand over the past 15 years. For an LE duty gun the Glock and the M&P are easy button and the newest M&P's (2.0 OR with the flat trigger) are really nice. There is good reason Glock and S&W dominate the US LE marketplace.
The VP9 is a great gun, but there is limited aftermarket support for it and its shape may or may not fit your hand despite the adjustability. They're reliable, but the trigger in factory form is just ok.
I like the PDP and it does have a wonderful trigger, but Walther's factory support is not great.
Shadow Systems has had some pretty spotty reliability lately. I wouldn't even consider them.
Lastly there is the P320. I love the P320. I've owned a few. I'm carrying a P320 at work in uniform right now.
My current setup is as follows:
- Custom Works FCU
- Grayguns flat trigger
- Wilson Combat slide release
- Pro Cut 4.7 slide with factory barrel
- Night Fision optic-height sights
- Large fullsize full legnth dustcover X grip module (no weight)
- Sig Romeo 1 Pro 6 moa optic
I'm using a US Duty Gear holster with no WML attached, but with the optic cover. I'm convinced that the "it just went off" stuff with the P320 is due to holster fit with Safariland WML holsters and SIG's lack of a trigger safety tab. So I skip the WML and use a handheld light like I did at the beginning of my career and will do so until Safariland and SIG crack the code on this.
This is probably one of the easiest guns to shoot I've ever had setup. I've used it through a bunch of classes and it's had about 5 cases of ammo (5,000 rounds) poured through it in the past year without a hiccup and little fatigue to the me as the shooter. For uniform carry and range use it's absolutely fantastic.
Is it easy to conceal? No, not really. I carry a P365 XMacro with a Holosun EPS carry off duty or when in plainclothes. Similar trigger/manual of arms, same amount of ammo, and very concealable.
Yes indeed. If I decide to go down the optics road, it will be with a Shadow Systems MR920.
Tomorrow's battle is won during today's practice.
Have you checked Springfield Armory?
Safety, Situational Awareness and proficiency.
Neck Ties, Hats and ammo brass, Never ,ever touch'em w/o asking first
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