For what it's worth to you:

I’ve followed this from the beginning and also watched some of Chris’s early videos on this subject and cannot disagree with him at all.

The P320/M17/M18 may very well grow into a legendary platform but there has been far too much “drama” surrounding it, as well as some of modern SIG’s business practices to keep me away from it also in my albeit limited experience, it doesn’t appear to be as reliable as I would expect a SIG to be or a comparable Glock. I am in the camp that Glock had the better, far more proven product. Hell I’m in the camp that we all could have saved a metric ton of tax payer money if they would have gone COTS G17. I mean we probably could have saved money if they would have damn near bought them off the shelf of Bass Pro.

Like I said though the P320 may very well mature into a legendary product. I just don’t want to beta test it.

Note I am not a GLOCK GUY so to speak. I far prefer my HKs and would have liked to have seen the M9A3/4 go forward. So it’s not just the “kool-aid” talking.

Take care, shoot safe
Chris

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
Hell I’m in the camp that we all could have saved a metric ton of tax payer money if they would have gone COTS G17. I mean we probably could have saved money if they would have damn near bought them off the shelf of Bass Pro.

Well, that would have meant convincing all the Fudds Generals that a military pistol does not - in fact - require a manual safety.

And that'd be quite the uphill battle.

Even in the face of the fact that stock Glocks have been fielded as-is by a number of other militaries.

It sounds like he's got more of an issue with the procurement process than the gun itself. He's upset because there was no phase 2 testing, and no field trials, yet the guns have been in the hands of soldiers for 6+ years now, with no major complaints that I am aware of, and he wasn't able to identify any specific issues, either. I'd say that's a pretty solid field trial (he did allude to the drop safety issue with the P320, and suggested that the same "recall" had to be performed on the military guns, but I've not seen documented proof of that anywhere. Even if it did, that would have been done on Sig's dime, not the military's).

I've owned a Beretta 92 for almost 20 years. I love the Beretta 92...it's a fantastic gun. Heck...my username here even give homage to it. I've been carrying a P320 daily on duty for the past 7 years, through numerous trainings and classes, and have thousands of rounds through it. I've also had both apart and done extensive work on the insides. I'm pretty familair with both platforms.

In my experience, for reliability they are neck and neck. The only malfunction I remember having with my 320 was when I shot too much cast lead ammo through it and gummed up the striker. My 92FS has been incredibly reliable as well, but I did break a locking block.

In my opinion you'd have to be crazy to opt for an M9 as a service pistol over an M17. The 320/M17 is easier to shoot, easier to maintain, and easier to adapt to the individual shooter (a HUGE issue for the 92FS/M9 in an agency environment). It also lends itself better to modern accessories like flashlights and slide-mounted optics (the Beretta being possibly the worst platform on the market for the latter).

They're both excellent, reliable platforms. The M17 is just incrementally modernized and better suited to accomodate the demands of the modern military or police force.

You’re absolutely right but Glock has fielded/made pistols with a safety in the past so while not a COTS solution a G17 with a safety would have been no biggie.

Again the P320 may very well prove over time to be the best choice and pistols don’t win wars so to speak but I just can’t help feeling like the Glock or an M9A3/4 would have been a better choice. While most of the berettas in inventory were surely shot out/long in the tooth, the ancillary parts and gear on hand could have been used.

I am of course looking at this as nothing more than a “keyboard commando” and have no idea of the logistical/political hurdles in play so these are just my uneducated opinion from experiences in the low double digits of these various guns at most vs a vast T&E program.

I have never been a fan of the M9. I qualified with it while in the service, but our deployments to Honduras saw me carrying my Commander.

I have also never been a big fan of the 9mm. If I had to shoot that calibre, it would be the .357 Sig. You can consider that sort of a 9mm Magnum. The presenter’s comment about seeing lots of people killed by a 9mm is misleading. Lots of people have been killed by a large variety of things. THAT isn’t the crieria. The correct measure is how many rounds do you need to shoot before your opponent STOPS ATTACKING. Those are two very different concepts. A shot through the heart can leave the person dead, BUT they would still have anywhere from 4 to maybe 8-10 seconds of useful consciousness. That’s a long time in a gunfight.

The same here Devereaux, i'd leave the main gate with my 1911 cocked and locked and four extra mags and never felt under armed, and found out the all steel helped if you have to slap someone with it. Loved Honduras, i tell people it was like the wild west doing convoy escorts, running the MSR, and doing courier flights to Tegucigalpa and Panama.

Thanks Para, I thoroughly enjoyed the video. I thought it to be all meat and potatoes. No BS just facts. The way I like it.

I always liked the M9 / 92FS. Reliable easy shooting 9mm.

quote:

Originally posted by Devereaux:
I have never been a fan of the M9. I qualified with it while in the service, but our deployments to Honduras saw me carrying my Commander.

I have also never been a big fan of the 9mm. If I had to shoot that calibre, it would be the .357 Sig. You can consider that sort of a 9mm Magnum. The presenter’s comment about seeing lots of people killed by a 9mm is misleading. Lots of people have been killed by a large variety of things. THAT isn’t the crieria. The correct measure is how many rounds do you need to shoot before your opponent STOPS ATTACKING. Those are two very different concepts. A shot through the heart can leave the person dead, BUT they would still have anywhere from 4 to maybe 8-10 seconds of useful consciousness. That’s a long time in a gunfight.

It's an example of one, but 14 critical hits with big ol' 45ACP including into the heart and other vitals...and the bad guy STILL keeps going?

How a police gunfight led one officer to choose 9mm over 45ACP

Let's not drift the thread, please. This is not the eternal argument of 9 vs 45.

I would like to know how readily a military issued SIG can actually have the grip swapped. I believe the government pistols have non-tamper hardware. Sounds like something where you are given a medium and told to not hold up the line.

I would guess the modularity will likely only be used as an easy repair/replace system vs a tailor to the soldier system. It may be more likely used beyond that only for the folks who are using a handgun as a primary type weapon.

I’m a big fan of both platforms. I’m waiting for the M17X exchange kits to become available so I can have a ROMEOM17 on top. That’s an awesome optic.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
I would guess the modularity will likely only be used as an easy repair/replace system vs a tailor to the soldier system. It may be more likely used beyond that only for the folks who are using a handgun as a primary type weapon.

I'm curious about how that plays out in practice in the military as well. I don't live anywhere near a base, but the last time I was at the USAF Museum in Dayton there was a female airman there working security with an M17 and I remember wondering this exact thing, but didn't want to get close enough to see, or be that creepy weird guy who walked up and asked her about her gun.

I know I've leveraged the capability heavily in LE. In the past few years we've hired quite a few small people, and I've ordered and swapped grip modules around to fit the shooter on multiple occasions. Personally, I'm using a "large". They also keep hiring backwards people, and on more than one occasion I've been down on the range with a paper clip swapping the mag release around for some lefty that nobody bothered to warn us was coming. The simplicity of the design makes it a 60 second task with a tool that I repurposed off of the stack of qual sheeets or stole off a desk in the Sheriff's dept. squad room.

I’ve always been a fan of the TDA guns. First carry gun was a SIG 228 and i would sometimes carry a 229.

I switched to Glock because everyone was doing it at work and I was constantly getting ragged on. I carries a 19 for 13 years putting around 80,000 rounds through it, and had a love hate relationship. I the benefit of striker fired for the masses and training a-lot of people to certain proficiency.

My love has always been for the TDA guns and legacy Sigs 226,228s and For some reason my 227 which Ive had for 5 years and shot maybe 100 rounds through. My current gun i carry for work is a Beretta LTT with an SRO.

That being said I dont see the point in switching from the M9/M11to the M17. I always thought handguns were only carried by certain people in the service and the beretta/SIG 228 met all the criteria of being a phenomenal carry gun. I remember my time at Gunsite when we were doing the extended pistol ranges shooting in the prone. I remember talking to Lamont (old vietnam Huey pilot) and said “ this is going to be tough double action first shot from 50 yards.

He said, you have a beretta you can cock the hammer with your support side thumb as you assume the prone. Once you put that gun in single action mode there is not a striker fired trigger onnthe market that is better. Distance equals time in most cases, dont buy into all this first shot must be DA nonsense, and if you have distance use your equipment.”

Sorry for the tirade, but i just think that with the M17 program was trying to turn everyone into a Delta operator/SEAL based off cool transitions shown in movies and training. I think the money for the program could have been spent in much better places, and a focus of teaching Rifles should have been more a focus. If you’re down to a pistol in warzone things have really gotten bad. If you’re a CID , or NCIS doing investigations then they should have probably just kept with the M11 or M9 maybe congress should have modified the TDP to order new RDS cut pistols, and also gone to a more reliable magazine.

My .02

The Brits were smart to move to the Glock 17 after the BHP

Interesting analysis.
I was hoping for a better review of the Sig, but it is what it is.
Just confirms my preference for the Beretta.

quote:

Well, that would have meant convincing all the Fudds Generals that a military pistol does not - in fact - require a manual safety.

Lawyers Lawyers Lawyers. Back in my groundpounder days most of the guys I served with had some (if not more) experience with firearms.
I thought the inclusion of a safety was for fear of lawsuits by the unwashed if/when an accidental discharge occurs.
I have owned Glocks since Gen2 and I shoot them well or at least I did before the arthritis started up.

I carried a 1911 when I was in. Today is Glocks, 92s, and a Sig 29 with red dot optics.

Arthritis and aging eyes are a PIA.

quote:

Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
I would like to know how readily a military issued SIG can actually have the grip swapped. I believe the government pistols have non-tamper hardware. Sounds like something where you are given a medium and told to not hold up the line.

The ones in our Armsroom at FT Hood had the normal take down lever. However, I never saw a different grip frame in the Armsroom. The medium is actually a decent size for most shooters. I believe the locked take down lever was on the test gun so no one messed it up.

We did get the new safariland holsters which I liked, but thought it had too much retention built (level III) in, unless you were going to jump with it.

Bartocci is usually pretty good, but he is missing some info. The date on Engineering Change Proposal four and when it went into the production guns. He needs to the full text of the testing reports which are not publicly released as far as I know. The feeding malfunctions are mentioned in a open source testing summary, but the actual tests and fix actions were not. Then they issued everyone 21 round magazines to make the pistols more bulky.

My M17 shot fine for qualification, but I have seen others fail to fire. But I wasn't able to determine the cause.

I haven't been issued the new JHPs, only FMJs, so I'm interested how well they run.

We've already seen strange issues pop up on the military side, check out Preventative Maintenance Magazine it had at least one artcle on M17 malfunctions. Time will tell on the M17, the fact that the other branches picked the M18 is already telling.