Hi all,

I own two Sig P365s. A standard one and an XL.

The XL came with a flat trigger, and I've upgraded it with the MCarbo trigger and spring kit, and I then installed the factory flat trigger from the XL in my standard P356 (my pocket carry).

The idea is I'll carry the standard P365 for pocket, but the XL when I'm not able to use a pocket holster.

I've been shooting the P356XL on a regular basis thinking I was doing appropriate cross training for both guns, but today I shot the regular P365 at the range for the first time in a while.

The difference between my shooting with the MCarbo trigger on the XL and the standard P365 was stark. The MCarbo trigger is so much more consistent and predictable than the stock trigger. The result is much better groups, much better control.

In a carry gun, my thinking is, that's a GOOD thing. But I've read that in a legal proceeding for a self defense situation, modified firearms are considered legally problematic.

I'd like to upgrade my pocket carry to the MCarbo trigger, as well as my M17, because I'll be much less likely to miss and hurt an innocent should the situation arise.

I'd argue the improved MCarbo trigger is an improvement to public safety, but I'm a reasonable, logical human, which is not always what we deal with in a situation.

I'd like to hear thoughts of members here. I'm also curious what USCCA lawyers might have to say (I'm a member).

UPDATE: I'd like to clarify a few things based on various comments:

I live in Hall County, GA, which is red. I also spend time in other counties, some of which are blue, but GA is not very restrictive. I'm not aware of any laws against having an aftermarket trigger.

I strive to avoid "situations". I'm in my 50's and don't care about night life any more and live on the premise of "nothing good happens after 8PM". And when I move about in public, I am prudent in terms of situational awareness as well. My ultimate goal is to avoid ever needing to defend myself.

The MCarbo trigger is not "light". It's lighter than stock, but not "stupid light". You have to be deliberate for it to fire. I like it because the mechanics are smooth and predictable. I get very consistent groups with it. I shoot it as well or even better than my 1911s.

I have an M17 with the Gray Guns Competition Trigger Kit, and that thing is STUPID light (< 3lb). I personally consider it safe for self defense because it, and both my P365s have thumb safeties. I'm a 1911 lover and I committed some time ago to having a thumb safety on any gun I shoot regularly to have consistent manual of arms/muscle memory. Given that my 1911 triggers range from 2.5 - 3.5lb, I don't consider the M17 trigger weight to be problematic, however...

I'm considering changing the M17 trigger to the MCarbo which will add weight to what it is now, but I shoot the MCarbo trigger so consistently, I'd like it on all 3 guns so I have the same feel regardless.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: nolatone,

25 years in law enforcement.

I've investigated hundreds of shootings.

I've been involved in more trials than I can count.

It's never come up. Not once.

If the shooting is justified, it's justified. Now, if it was a civil trial involving an AD then modifications might have a bearing on the case.

In how many of those cases did the gun have a modified trigger? How many had a defendent with a credible claim to self defense? How many had both?

As much as we talk about modding defensive guns, in the total range of shooting cases that go to court, they likely represent a miniscule fraction of those cases. I'd be surprised if they were more than 1 in 10,000

quote:

Originally posted by copaup:
25 years in law enforcement.

I've investigated hundreds of shootings.

I've been involved in more trials than I can count.

It's never come up. Not once.

If the shooting is justified, it's justified. Now, if it was a civil trial involving an AD then modifications might have a bearing on the case.

quote:

Originally posted by nolatone:


The difference between my shooting with the MCarbo trigger on the XL and the standard P365 was stark. The MCarbo trigger is so much more consistent and predictable than the stock trigger. The result is much better groups, much better control.

I'd like to upgrade my pocket carry to the MCarbo trigger, as well as my M17, because I'll be much less likely to miss and hurt an innocent should the situation arise.

I'd argue the improved MCarbo trigger is an improvement to public safety, but I'm a reasonable, logical human, which is not always what we deal with in a situation.

I'm not a lawyer nor an LEO. I just believe myself to be a reasonable, logical human just like you think yourself to be.

Let's do a fishbone diagram of cause and effect. You'll find yourself in a legally proceeding involving the use of your gun if you fire the gun, yes?

If you fired the gun, did you intend to fire the gun when it did? If you intentionally fired the gun, then it doesn't matter whether the trigger you used was stock or not, yes? If you didn't intend to fire the gun but pulled the trigger, a stock trigger wouldn't have prevented you from pulling the trigger, right? If you're going to blame the trigger that you installed made you pull the trigger, it goes back to you.

If you did intend to fire the gun and it did but the wrong person was hit, would a stock trigger have prevented you or made it less likely that you hit the wrong person? Again, if you're going to blame the trigger, then it goes back to you.

If, somehow the gun "accidentally" went off by itself and the bullet hit someone, this might be the only scenario where having a stock trigger gives you two chances to absolve yourself of any responsibility - slim and none - because gun manufacturers spend a lot of resources to "prove" their guns don't go off by themselves unless it's been mishandled or not properly maintained which then goes back to you.

As I see it, I don't see how an after market trigger would make any bad situation you find yourself in any worse. It improves the functionality of your gun to make it and you more safe by providing consistency and better accuracy. It doesn't speak negatively about your mindset like having the punisher skull logo or "shoot first, let god sort them out" etched on your barrel.

The only problem I see is if the pull weight is so light (either by design, malfunction or improper installation) that it contributed to or caused you to fire an unintended shot. That would open you up to both civil and criminal charges.

Without knowing the City and State you are talking about, none of us can provide you with meaningful information

We can relay what has occurred in our jurisdictions but not much more

Your scenario plays out totally different if you live in Los Angeles California instead of Davie Florida

All day you can find people saying aftermarket triggers are a one way ticket to the electric chair. I've been hearing people say that for decades, and can't think of an example of it occurring.

We all know that if you carry a gun, you should train with it. Certainly with a modified trigger, if you don't train with that it's even more foolhardy than not training with the stock pistol.

Lawyers will give advice that ensures the most successful case. It makes sense that an unmodified pistol would be less of a potential issue in court. But the case would have to have some reason to focus on the equipment, rather than the more important part about shooting a guy.

As SAA said, location is important. There might be something actually in the law in your locality. Really though, if it's not part of a law, and is brought up against you... If your lawyer isn't competent enough to shield you from being penalized for things that are not illegal, well you've got a few problems..

If you shoot a guy with a handgun that is bone stock mechanically, but you put Punisher skull grips on it and have "Make My Day" or some shit engraved on the side, is that a problem? Or is a gun with no alteration beyond a custom trigger?

I agree with the above, good shoot or bad shoot is the biggie.

Another item is safe carry, I really don’t need a lighter ‘range trigger’ on a carry gun.

A last factor, us gun guys can be particular, what’s desired by one, may not be the choice for the next guy.

I think the reality is ……
1-Do your absolute damnedest to never harm anybody else. (I know you may not get a choice but even in “permissive” locales you are still likely in for a court drama you don’t want not to mention the mental anguish. If at all possible un-ass the AO so to speak.

2-The prosecutor you get is a crap shoot anywhere.

3-Silly shit like punisher skulls or wait for flash would even make ME as a jury member at least think twice and I am a pro 2nd gun geek. So how do you think Karen will take it.

4-If you are going to get custom work done, and this is only my opinion, get it done professionally so you at least can’t be made out to be some kitchen table yahoo who very well could have installed the trigger wrong or adjusted it too lightly or filed the sear down blah blah. On a defensive arm, my opinion is leave stock or have a third party known professional do the work even if you are more than capable of doing so. (I don’t me sights or addling a light. I mean like triggers or other mechanical changes). Again this is my OPINION.

5-Remember even the most cut and dry justifiable shoot comes with mostly downsides. (You could be killed, you will be tried in some way, you will have a stigma attached, there will be a monetary outlay, if you are a remotely normal person it’s going to haunt you in some way to harm another person, you may damage your own property in the process etc. etc. etc. you might get an anti gun prosecutor going though a divorce whose wife or husband left them for an NRA executive.

Just keep in mind anything you do to plan to shoot better/faster pales in comparison to your plans to NOT HAVE to shoot.

Again this is just my opinion and how I have approached my shooting life. I am however FULLY aware of how quickly stuff goes pear shaped and none of this is to say self defense is never justified etc. just to say always look for the alternative/avoidance.

Endless. I've seen this discussion since the dawn of the Internet. Here's my (simplified) take:

1) You are dealing with the unknown...literally. Tough to have an intelligent discussion.

2) Don't disagree with the observations from other members. However, comes down to one simple issue. Prosecutors and defense attorneys will always grab whatever HOOK is beneficial. May or may not work for them. Personally, I try not to provide any more hooks than necessary.

3) In many justifiable SD shootings it becomes a two-step. Not the dance though. First step is charges by the DA. Crap shoot. Second step, regardless of criminal charges, is the potential for civil litigation by the perp's relatives. You have deprived them of their bread and butter. In Step 1 they accuse you of being a cold-blooded murderer who intended to kill the "victim". In the second, they accuse you of being a "negligent" menace to humanity in order to collect on your insurance and assets.

4) Given the above, you can be charged with two diametrically opposed intents: (1) You willfully and maliciously killed another human being. (2) You accidentally and negligently killed another human being. Which is it? Lawyers don't really care.

I'd look at the bigger picture, rather than arguing over trigger mods:

1) Understand what the laws of SD are in your jurisdiction.

2) Avoid putting yourself in situations where you may have to use your SD skills.

3) Select your equipment and train appropriately. Yeah, we could talk all day about that. One of my old timers once said something to the effect that: "You know that you are prepared when your attacker is in more danger than you are."

4) Train your mind as well. If unable to avoid the encounter, a violent, explosive counter-attack is in order. That may have been Jeff Cooper. Small differences in equipment aren't going to mean much. IMHO, the gun is third in the hierarchy. Awareness, tactics and then equipment.

FWIW, Some of my pistols have aftermarket triggers to deal with very specific issues. However, NONE of them have super light competition style triggers or mods.

I've had aftermarket parts on Glocks for many years. They did improve the trigger but only lightened the pull weight by a tiny bit. More so travel, rest and smoothness. I also had a Walther PPQ a few years back and although it was a dream to shoot, the unmodified factory stock trigger was so light, unintentional double taps occurred at every range session. MUCH lighter pull than even the most heavily modified Glock I had.

But again, I've asked this nearly every time this has come up and have never got an answer. That is; "point me to a case where a minimally modified gun has been used against the defendant and that evidence was the major factor which resulted in a conviction?"

quote:

Originally posted by colt_saa:
Without knowing the City and State you are talking about, none of us can provide you with meaningful information

We can relay what has occurred in our jurisdictions but not much more

Your scenario plays out totally different if you live in Los Angeles California instead of Davie Florida

Flowery branch, Georgia, but I travel around various counties, some red, some blue. I agree where an incident might occur has a lot to do with how it’s prosecuted.

Would you think twice about being sued after a crash if you put a lift kit and aftermarket suspension parts on your truck or a had a custom performance tune on your BMW?

If you used you gun in a self defense scenario, would you immediately blurt out "I have an aftermarket trigger in my gun"? Why? My guess is in 99% of shootings, the guns make, model and serial number go into the report and then it gets logged into property as potential evidence. I doubt that any further examination of the gun would ever take place.
The only time I was called on to look hard at an evidence gun was an AK that was used in a family fight. The victim told us the offender had modified it to be full auto. And it was. I made a video of the gun firing for the prosecution and the offender was charged accordingly.

Massad Ayoob has numerous articles about this on the WWW.

They are very good reads.

Why you had to defend yourself, not the tool you used, is what’s most important.
Too many variables beyond that to worry about the rest.

In addition, if your use is justified you are immune to any civil liability in GA.

https://law.justia.com/codes/g...11/article-1/51-11-9

I do cop and am reasonably familiar with the ins and outs of our particular program. Some of where I think this gets bandied about (no offense to the OP, I have asked around after hearing it back in the when) is departments having restrictions on guns trigger pulls and the like. You can find that your shooting is justified but might get in admin trouble from your dept if you modified your gun and took it out of dept regs. A bunch of cops and I've heard if from the mil guys too, not knowing a lot about guns, then apply this to any gun and not just their issued guns.

I am unaware of a good shoot where someone got hung up because of the gun mods except as previously mentioned for illegal mods. Many depts now days allow for factory approved mods that keep the gun above a certain trigger lb etc etc. My backup is modified for example however glock approved the mods and therefore I am not in reg/policy danger if I get into something with it.

I have no experience with the MCarbo trigger.

If you are pulling from the tip of the trigger there is NO difference in the required pull force to release the sear, between the Sig flat or curved P365 series trigger. The required pull force ranges from between 3.5 and 4.0 lbs, depending upon the trigger return spring and sear spring tolerances.

If you have a large diameter trigger finger you will be pulling the trigger near the middle with either the flat or curved trigger and there required pull force will be between 7 to 8 lbs.

If you have a skinny trigger finger you can pull the flat trigger closer to the tip and the required pull force would be in the 5 to 6 lbs range.

If you have skinny trigger finger the curved trigger will keep your finger near the middle of the trigger and the required pull force will be between about 7 or 8 lbs.

With the curved trigger the force on your trigger finger is more evenly distributed. With the flat trigger the force against your finger is more localized, and you may notice a greater change in pressure as you squeeze the trigger.

Neither trigger is safer than the other.

What if someone else gets a hold of your gun and has an accidental discharge with injury… you could be part of a lawsuit. I’m reaching here, but just trying to come up with a scenario.

The funny part about of the whole “don’t modify your gun or they will arrest your children too” is that more and more LE guns are being modified. The new fed issued rifle comes factory with Geissele SSA-E trigger.

Maybe they didn’t read all the gun rag articles or innerwebz hand wringing about modifying your firearms…..