I have a few questions about zeroing my new red dots.

I have new Holosuns for my P365 and P320.

At what distance do you zero your red dots?

Do they co-witness your regular sights?

When you dialed in your red dots, did you use a rest or shoot freehand?

Tag to follow. I just bought a Holosun, and will be getting a handgun with the perdiem from my next TAD. My plan was to co-witness with the irons, and then adjust. I was going to do it freehand, and start at 7m and see where I I am at at 25m. But maybe someone has a better solution.

If you know the irons were on, adjusting the dot to the same point of aim should get you close. I like to start with a few rounds at very close range (10feet?) just to make double sure something isn't WAY off, then move back to longer distances for fine tuning.

I zero at 25y. I definitely use a rest when doing the last fine tuning. I like MNSIG toss a few handheld rounds at the target at 10y just to make sure I'm starting in the area code of the target before I move it out to 25y.

quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG:
If you know the irons were on, adjusting the dot to the same point of aim should get you close. I like to start with a few rounds at very close range (10feet?) just to make double sure something isn't WAY off, then move back to longer distances for fine tuning.

I echo this statement. Even if the sights are low or don't co-witness you can get the RD pretty close and make any major adjustments to the RD before heading to the range. Start close like 7 yards and move out to 25yards making minor adjustments.

I do this with every sight that doesn't co-witness and I get surprisingly close.
I've done it on a P365 with Sig Romeo Elite and a P320 VTAC with a delta point pro.
I come to prefer a lower co-witness or no co-witness.

When I took the Red Dot class at Sig Academy, they suggested a 15 yard zero. So that's what I use.

The pic shows typical numbers for a P320 compact sized pistol with a 3.9 inch barrel using the RomeoPro1 optic with different bullet weights. Considering optic height over bore, barrel length, and other factors I would expect similar performance from other gun/optic/bullet combinations.

Your red dot won't necessary co-witness with your irons -- they are independent sighting systems so you should sight them in separately. However, assuming your irons are sighted in pretty closely, slaving the dot to your irons is a good place to start.

I used to zero at 25 yards, but having read/listened to some of Scott Jedlinski's advice on red dots, I decided to try his method for my most recent red dot pistol I bought. For what it's worth, the process took far less time and frustration than what I had been doing prior.

He recommends zeroing at 10 yards, and confirming at 25. A big reason he lists is that it's easier for most shooters to get consistent groups at 10yd vs. 25. It can also mitigate hold over/under issues that come come up with a 25 yard zero.

But I'll let him explain rather than butchering his reasoning by trying to repeat it myself


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFqLeEUAe1Q

I only have two MRDS sights. I believe they are rough zeroed at 25 yards at the factory. I've only had to tinker with windage a bit at 10-15 yards to get zeroed. I've never had to FULL ON zero (as in many clicks in either drop or windage or both).

wow, good thread.

My only pistol RDS is an old Delta Point on a 22/45. I used a laser bore sighter to get close-enough, then walked it in at the ramge. This pistol is far less accurate than my Buck mark, and the DP is a bitch to adjust so I got frustrated getting a precise POA with it. No backup irons on it, which makes everything harder.

Zeroing using a proper rest will virtually always give more accurate, consistent results than trying to do it unsupported. For a handgun like the P320 or P365 use something like a sandbag that allows the pistol to recoil (mostly) normally; don’t rest the butt on a hard surface. I usually prefer just using a normal firing grip with my hands then resting on the support. The support should be firm enough to support the gun and hands without changing from shot to shot. A rolled-up piece of clothing is better than nothing, but just barely.

For precision shooting as with a long range rifle, the point of impact can change from what was set as a zero based on the type of support (if any) is used in the field or in a competition, but that’s unlikely to be an issue for the type of shooting most people do with handguns like the ones being discussed. It’s still important to check the zero while shooting normally without artificial support, but if the point of impact is significantly different, then there was probably a problem with the zeroing technique or with how we’re shooting unsupported.

I often find my POI will shift between rested and offhand. So I always verify sight-in with offhand groups.

All my red dot pistols have suppressor height sights as a backup to the dot and when I am on target with the dot the irons are also. If the dot is there I don't notice the irons.

I start by slaving the dot to the irons, which typically gets it very close. I then zero at 15 using a rest, but also shoot a few freehand just to confirm.

A note about co-witness with a pistol red dot:

These things are basically parallax free. As such, just because you can hold the gun so that the dot aligns with the irons doesn't mean that that will necessarily be your sight picture when you are shooting. The dot doesn't even have to be centered in the window to make point-of-aim hits...just get it somewhere in the window so you can see it and put it between you and the target.

I have never seen that chart from Sig Academy but it sure seems to align with my personal experience.

I sight in at 10-15 yards mainly because the difference at 25-50 isn't that much and mainly because I am eliminating my own error by shooting at a distance that I can see reasonably see the sighting target. At 25 yards there is no way I am even aiming at the exact same point anymore, especially with indoor range lighting which is where I typically sight in. At 15 yards I can still see the aiming point on the paper enough to ensure I'm not the problem.

I try to put 5 in same hole at 7 yards 1/2 inch below my point of aim.
Next I do a t round 25 yards windage check and adjustment as needed.
Then I finish with a 5 shot group at 15 yards with the intent of my POA and POI being dead center up, down left and right.
This gives me a 15 yard zero with as little as 15 rounds, and the confidence of knowing my windage is good for a long shot.

This is a highly divisive topic.

I use the Modern Samurai Project method:

10 yards on a 1" paster, standing unsupported.
Confirm and fine-tune at 25 on the black portion of a B8. Particularly for windage.

I give Scott Jedlinski a lot of weight in how to work with a dot on a pistol. He's taught more people than probably anyone at this point (100+ classes of 20+ people per year). He's correct when he says that if you can shoot, your zero distance doesn't matter, and if you can't shoot, your zero distance really doesn't matter.

Watch this video:

https://youtu.be/mudA-PZ_OiA

There is nothing wrong with a 25 yard zero shot from a rest (or 15, or whatever), but the 10 yard zero works quickly with limited resources and limited rounds. I can routinely shoot 90+ slowfire 25 yard B8s on my 10 yard zeroed guns.

We started zeroing at 10yds and fine tune at 25yds with the B8 target.

It's been working for us for a few years. We never slave the red dot to the irons. Different planes.

25 yards, unsupported, group in upper A zone as a reference.

Last year, I bought a LabRadar to help me understand ballistics and Maximum Point Blank Range. I did, what I consider, a sufficiently extended shooting of different carry ammo for my P226 and my P365XL. I also took note of the altitude, temperature, and humidity; the ballistics calculator needed those data. Below is a partial screenshot of my Excel spreadsheet. Here's what I found out:

Maximum Point Blank Range is adjusting your point of aim / point of impact so that the bullet's trajectory will be inside a target size for the longest range. For example, I started with a target size of 6". Given the average speed of Federal 9MM JHP Train & Protect ammo coming out of my barrel, my near zero was at 7 yards and my far zero was at 95 yards. Meaning for a target 6" high, I had to adjust my point of aim / point of impact at 7 yards. If my target was anywhere from the end of my barrel out to 113 yards, I would hit the target inside of 6". I would hit the center exactly at 7 yards. Past 7 yards, I would hit above the center until 95 yards where it will drop down and hit the center of the 6" again. Past 95 yards, I would be hitting below center until at 113 yards, I would hit the bottom of that 6" target. And at exactly 100 yards, I would be about 0.63" below the center on average. So my Maximum Point Blank Range is 113 yards meaning the target can be anywhere out to 113 yards and, ballistically, I should hit where I aim within plus or minus 3" from the vertical.

But studying the numbers, I found that this Maximum Point Blank Range depends, after the ballistics of your ammo and gun is accounted for, largely on the target size you've chosen. And practicality says, I'm not going to be shooting at anything out to 113 yards.

So I analyzed how Near and Far Zeros along with Maximum Point Blank Range are affected by continually reducing the target size by 1". I concluded that if I standardize to adjusting my point of aim / point of impact to 10 yards across my carry guns, I can make it easy zeroing my guns and practice sessions and still have practical Maximum Point Blank Range. For example with my P226, when I zero at 10 yards, it's optimized for a target size of 2.5", my far zero is 68 yards, and my Maximum Point Blank Range is 80 yards. I still say I won't be shooting at anything 80 yards out but knowing my ballistics gives me a better picture of what is happening to the bullet in flight and understanding that anywhere inside of 80 yards, I'll be plus or minus 2.5" from the vertical.

For the irons, I mathematically determined where the point of aim / point of impact should be and then I confirmed at the range by shooting at various ranges. I did my confirmation shootings for both iron and RDS with the gun and my hand supported by a sandbag. To get the velocity numbers, I didn't need to rest the gun, just shoot it near the chronograph.

I don't get any of that discussion as relevant for a 9mm round. I am completely happy with a zero that gives me +- 1" with my carry ammo from zero to 50y. That's well inside my ability to shoot! So I use a 25y zero and that's what I get -.9 at point blank and -.8 at 50. In no universe I can conceive am I making a longer than 50y defensive shot. But I have also shot in excess of 100K rounds of 9mm in competition. And that exact same zero works at every match I have participated in. Its actually occasionally true where I shoot to have high precision challenge at 25y (like a 3" target) but its never true that I have a target closer than that the the POA/POI difference would make a difference.