Pushing my groups to the left and can't figure out why. Elevation is right on, but groups are to the left.

Been a couple of months since I've had a range session. Bought a P365 Legion was shooting great groups but all were to the left. Always put something in my range bad that I consistently shoot well just to verify if it's me or the gun. I was shooing great groups right in the center of the target with my 226 SAO that session. Thinking, "Ok the sights on the P365 need to be adjusted for windage."

Second range session shooting left again with the 365. Consistently off to the left again. Shoot my Shadow DR920 (Glock 17 clone) and I'm off to the left with it. The right down the middle with the 226. Thinking, "Maybe I'm doing something strange with stroker fired triggers."

Third range session packed my Smith 627 revolver in .22LR to work on trigger discipline. It's one of those guns that I've always shot well and pack in the range bag. Doesn't matter double action or single action, I'm off to the left. Take out my P320 XTen Comp. Wanted to get one last range session in with just irons before I mount the red dot on it. Great groups all centered on the target. "Ok, so it's not just striker fired..." Take out my Shadow MR920 (Glock 19 clone) and I'm off to the left and then still off to the left with my 365.

I'm at a loss. Shooting great groups with everything, just some I'm constantly left and other I'm right in the middle. I have a feeling it's something in my grip I need to correct. Frustrating in that I want to mount a dot on my P365, I just want to get on with the irons with it before doing so.

It's tough to diagnose a shooter without being there in person, but there are three primary potential causes here:

A) Jerking/slapping the trigger (more common). For a right-handed shooter, this typically pushes hits over to the left of POA. Often low and left.

B) Death-gripping the gun/clamping down while pulling the trigger (less common). Some shooters have a tendency to white-knuckle the pistol, and especially to clamp down hard on the gun with their firing hand while pulling the trigger in order to "control" the coming recoil. This can shift hits left of POA for a right-handed shooter.

C) Not enough finger on the trigger (least common). Again for a right-handed shooter, not having enough finger on the trigger causes lateral input pushing on the right side of the trigger, instead of pressing the trigger straight back, causing hits to shift to the left of POA. Sometimes this is a placement issue, and other times it's simply a matter of the grip being too large or the gun design itself having too long of a trigger reach for a smaller-handed shooter.


Start doing some dry fire practice, focusing on slowly pressing the trigger smoothly to the rear until it breaks, and keeping a slightly firm handshake-style grip that doesn't change in firmness while you operate the trigger.

If that doesn't fix it, the next time you're at the range, consider moving the contact point between your finger and the trigger over a bit closer to your first knuckle and see if that helps.

To piggy back on rogue, all of those are valid points.
Regarding grip some people will shoot left ( right handed shooter ) when the add tension to the grip at or around the instant of firing. In my old bullseye days we called it mixing the grip. The trigger finger must move independently of the gripping fingers. The body’s natural state is to have all fingers grip simultaneously and you must consciously not tighten the gripping fingers while applying pressure to the trigger

Everything Rogue said. If after trying that you're still shooting left, take a look at how you establish your grip. I'm assuming you're right-handed. If you're wrapping your support hand fingers over your dominant hand and then placing your palm on the grip, try doing that the other way around. Place your palm on the grip first, then wrap your fingers. It seems kinda dumb, but I find this helps me avoid over-gripping and pulling the gun to the left.

Like 92fstech said, this is how I finally tamed my USP 40 Compact from being a consistently low & left shooter. A stronger support hand grip and a little less grip on the dominant hand helps me keep the pistol steady and pointing where it's supposed to. It was different and I had to practice it, but it worked for me.

I generally push Glock pistols left of point of aim but get nice tight groups. If I focus on more front to back pressure with my dominant hand my groups shift right. As others have advised, start with your grip and then make sure you are pulling the trigger straight back. Try to focus on those two things and not the results down range.

Your support hand. Have that locked in tight, and if you ca,n gently run your thumb along the slide.

I suffer from C) as Rogue says, and it seems to be primarily with my mid/full size Glocks too. Low and left. IIRC, it's not apparent with the G42.
I need to get to the range more often for trigger finger therapy.

Maybe you're being a little too liberal with your trigger finger and should try to be a bit more conservative.

Maybe when you squeeze the trigger you unknowingly push the trigger a little to to the left. Concentrate and move the trigger straight back.

I observed the following with me when I had that problem. I’m right handed.

Weak support hand grip

Improper trigger technique (slight movement of the gun to the left when I would press the trigger)

Needed to relax my right hand a little more

Working on those things corrected my point of impact. Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by Dead air:
Maybe when you squeeze the trigger you unknowingly push the trigger a little to to the left. Concentrate and move the trigger straight back.

Sorry for the thread drift. I want to welcome Dead air to SIGforum. IMO, great advice for a first post.

Back to this thread. I have seen targets that explain why you are shooting where you are. Obviously, they are probably not 100% accurate, but they may offer some help.

Had that issue when I first started shooting Glocks. My issue was not enough trigger finger. I was used to just using the pad of my finger, moved closer to the joint and problem solved.

Maybe it doesn't work for you. (fit your hand, even if its feels good)

I have one gun that unless I hold it in a totally unnatural, non standard way (for me) everything is low left, despite the gun feeling great in my hand. I've owned dozens and dozens and dozens of pistols, and fired hundreds more that I didn't do this with, but this one...

(one of the things I should have sold 25 years ago but for some reason didn't)

Diagnostic targets are a waste of time.

You're moving the gun in the shot process. That's it. Maybe it's increasing grip tension. Maybe it's not enough support hand grip. Maybe you're pushing forward to try to control recoil and the timing is off.

The solution to moving the gun before the shot breaks is simple: stop doing it.

The fact that it is simple does not make it easy.

I would look up "trigger control at speed" and start working on that in dry fire. If you don't have a shot timer, download an app to do it. Hold the sights on a very fine aiming point, start the timer on delay, and attempt to pull the trigger all the way through within the duration of the beep (0.3 seconds). Repeat. Change grip pressures. Repeat. Do this until the sights stop moving.

Start with your finger in contact with the trigger shoe and work on it until you fix it. Move to finger off the trigger (I touch my fingernail to the inside of the trigger guard) and work from that position until you fix it. Finally, go to finger indexed outside of the trigger guard and work that position until fixed.

This is going to take a lot of reps. Do 10-15 minutes a day and try to hit it several times a week. You will be amazed at how much better you can get with an hour a week of very deliberate dry fire.

I think there is also some value to Chuck Pressburg's "Flinchies" video (https://youtu.be/eETQjJQT68w?si=ZlCyFBAsrzggzIA7), but if you can learn how to press straight through the trigger without moving the gun, you'll find that you'll need to prep the trigger far less.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:
You're moving the gun in the shot process. That's it.

Obviously.

After the discussion and explanations by, as I recall, jljones some years ago about the common problem right-handed Glock shooters have with impacts low and especially left, I started focusing on identifying and correcting that tendency among my students.

Although improper pressure in the trigger is usually blamed for the problem, increasing grip pressure during the trigger press can also cause it. I use a plastic Glock to show what happens if I increase pressure with my trigger hand. Even with my arthritic fingers as I do that the muzzle moves in what direction? Low and left. Although the phenomenon occurs with other pistols, it seems to be more pronounced with Glocks.

In my most recent training session the Glock shooter told me that he always hits left. I had more difficulty getting him to concentrate on not increasing grip pressure and good trigger control than some people. I finally did the You hold and aim the gun and I’ll press the trigger demonstration and where did the shots go? Exactly where he was aiming because he was not pressing the trigger himself or increasing grip pressure while waiting for the shot to break.

I believe that demonstration helped convince him that the problem was that he was moving the gun during the shot process and all of a sudden he was no longer hitting low and left (at least not with every shot).

I am intrigued by the dry fire with a timer drill. My timer’s minimum par time of 0.4 second, but I tried the drill a few times and I believe I can see its benefit. I’ll have to experiment some more, including trying to see if I can actually get my trigger release time using the dry fire sensitivity setting of the timer.

Added: Another thing that can help the shooter recognize what he’s doing wrong, or at least that he’s doing something wrong are “ball and dummy” drills. The drill consists of loading live and dummy cartridges in a magazine at random and then noting what happens when a dummy is in the chamber when the trigger is pulled.

Although it’s a little more convenient to have someone else load the mags, it’s possible for one person to do it just as effectively. Doing something like wearing thin gloves when loading the mag while drawing cartridges blindly from a container works for me, or load several mags with different sequences and then blindly shuffle them around before inserting into the pistol.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,

You actually don't need a par time. The beep itself is 0.3 seconds on most timers. You're trying to press the trigger all the way through without moving the gun within the duration of the beep. It's frustrating until it starts working.

The low left thing (for righties) is indeed common. Some blame trigger finger position. Some blame the grip angle. If you can convince your support hand to hold the gun steady and your strong hand to not overpower it, you should see some results. It's not a mystery that the gun goes towards the non-dominant hand. It's the path of least resistance.

Thanks for that clarification.
As I say, I will have to experiment more with the drill, but I can see how it might be helpful for teaching good trigger control. And although I don't have any low/left POI problems that I can identify, the drill might be useful for me as well.

Does it hit right shooting with the other hand? If it still shoots left, maybe adjust the sights.

I was just watching this video by Ben Stoeger on this issue:

https://youtu.be/XJW77MeV26Y?si=UBt8wV2ltOsGtYzE