SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  SIG Pistols    Optics vs Iron Sights on Defensive Pistols
Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 

Moderators: Chris Orndorff, LDD
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Optics vs Iron Sights on Defensive Pistols Login/Join 
Member
Picture of Jupiter
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
I posted early in this thread. And deleted it because of the inevitable.





I remember one of those.
Something about "People have cozy ideas of what their next fight may be, and are nicely settled into a “hit me like this” reasoning." Big Grin


Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
-- George Orwell

 
Posts: 3987 | Location: North Mississippi | Registered: August 09, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
...Aside from being mostly deaf, I'm headed toward being mostly blind...


THIS is one of the biggest reasons to look into it.
 
Posts: 4143 | Location: Iowa | Registered: February 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by DaBigBR:
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
...Aside from being mostly deaf, I'm headed toward being mostly blind...


THIS is one of the biggest reasons to look into it.


True. I could use some restorative hearing protection from the optic. You've changed my mind.
 
Posts: 6205 | Registered: September 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Bolt Thrower
Picture of Voshterkoff
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
Within the next 12-24 months, you’ll be hard pressed to find a federal agent without a MRDS. Local and state agencies are going to follow. The disadvantages are few, and the advantages are many. The FAMS, DEA, ATF, ICE, CBP are all on that road currently. Many state and local agencies are fielding them in limited numbers.


I still see patrol cops without a pistol mounted light in badge cam footage, do you feel like the red dot will surpass WML acceptance in LEO?
 
Posts: 9269 | Location: Woodinville, WA | Registered: March 30, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Diablo Blanco
Picture of dking271
posted Hide Post
I’ve been slow to convert but have been training pretty hard with several RMR pistols. It has made me faster/better on the irons, but the more I train the more I’m thinking I should start carrying an optic pistol. It has been a great tool to clean up my draw and presentation. I do believe the optic will overtake the WML for patrol officers.


_________________________
"When a man is denied the right to live the life he believes in, he has no choice but to become an outlaw.” - Nelson Mandela
 
Posts: 2021 | Location: Middle-TN | Registered: November 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
Within the next 12-24 months, you’ll be hard pressed to find a federal agent without a MRDS. Local and state agencies are going to follow. The disadvantages are few, and the advantages are many. The FAMS, DEA, ATF, ICE, CBP are all on that road currently. Many state and local agencies are fielding them in limited numbers.


I still see patrol cops without a pistol mounted light in badge cam footage, do you feel like the red dot will surpass WML acceptance in LEO?


Man, it’s looking like that way. But time will tell. There *seems* to be less reluctance for optics than there even was with lights. The kind of absolute horseshit that went on over lights was comical. I had a friend of mine who was a Captain with the state police. They were looking at lights in patrol. A colonel was dismissing the idea with the standard “I didn’t have them when I was a trooper so it has to be bad”. The colonel actually said to him “Well, I’m afraid that we’ll have troopers pointing guns at people during building searches at three o’clock in the morning”. My buddy never missed a beat and replied “They are supposed to fucking point guns at people when searching buildings at three o’clock in the morning”.

They have since got WMLs.




www.opspectraining.com

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 35370 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
quote:
Originally posted by DaBigBR:
quote:
Originally posted by sns3guppy:
...Aside from being mostly deaf, I'm headed toward being mostly blind...


THIS is one of the biggest reasons to look into it.


True. I could use some restorative hearing protection from the optic. You've changed my mind.


Next time I'll try to remember to make the blind part bold and increase the font size.
 
Posts: 4143 | Location: Iowa | Registered: February 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
Within the next 12-24 months, you’ll be hard pressed to find a federal agent without a MRDS. Local and state agencies are going to follow. The disadvantages are few, and the advantages are many. The FAMS, DEA, ATF, ICE, CBP are all on that road currently. Many state and local agencies are fielding them in limited numbers.


I still see patrol cops without a pistol mounted light in badge cam footage, do you feel like the red dot will surpass WML acceptance in LEO?


I think the number of agencies not using weapon mounted lights is relatively small and decreasing. You're always going to have places that are slow to change. Jerry is right about local agencies following what the feds do, too.
 
Posts: 4143 | Location: Iowa | Registered: February 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of RichardC
posted Hide Post
"In the photos published on the internet, it is not clear which model of the pistol it is, but it is known that as of 2019 the Capitol Police used the Glock 22, which uses 40 caliber S&W cartridges. "

https://www.revyuh.com/news/li...d-and-white-stripes/

Will the Capitol Police be using their increased budget to upgrade to 9MM pistols with RDS's?

"DeLauro introduced the bill on Friday, which would allocate $520.9 million toward the National Guard; $43.9 million toward the Capitol Police which would be used for overtime, hazard pay, retention bonuses, trauma support, equipment and intelligence resources. "

https://nypost.com/2021/05/20/...st-capitol-security/


_____________________
"Physics is like politics. It puts real effort into fighting imaginary forces." --- Fortnine
 
Posts: 12888 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Big Stack
posted Hide Post
I'd like to turn this line of thinking upside down, and ask what has been the experience to date? Red dot optics have been in LE use for years now. Certainly adoption has been far from universal, and is still probably a distinct minority. But in raw numbers, there are now a lot of optics on guns in police holsters, enough to be a useful statistical sample. If there are to be real problems, as opposed to theoretical problems LE agencies should be aware of them by now.

What has been the experience/feedback?

quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
Rereading the comments by Jupiter about maintenance and related issues pertaining to optical sights on handguns brought to mind some thoughts I’ve long had about law enforcement use of such sights. It would be interesting to know how many LE agencies are adopting optical sights as standard equipment for all officers (not just the special teams, etc.). Is it just (so far) a few agencies manned by enthusiastic true believers in the administration and/or training staff? Or because at least in part due to all the advertising depicting self-defense weapons equipped with optical sights and, “I saw … we should …,” is it becoming the latest Thing to Do?

It’s one thing when an officer who is very interested in guns and shooting and has a dedicated, conscientious attitude to ensuring his weapons are properly maintained. It’s another, though, when someone leaves the agency and turns in a pistol whose night sights are so covered in dirt that they’re invisible in the dark and his magazines are full of dust and debris in addition to the ammunition. What will his optical sight with its huge catch basin for everything from fast food residues to the hair from his K9 look like after three months of being ignored?

I won’t respond or try to anticipate the inevitable objections and rationalizations that will be offered up in reaction to my questions (some of which might even be valid), but it is something I will be curious to monitor in the future.
 
Posts: 20375 | Registered: November 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by BBMW:
I'd like to turn this line of thinking upside down, and ask what has been the experience to date?


Well, that was the essence of my question: Do LEOs ever have problems with optical sights on handguns (handguns, son, handguns: not long guns that are stored and employed much differently)? Are they in common enough use for us to have an answer? Keep in mind that the answer may require that the sights become the rule rather than the exception, for example when a large agency mandates them on all officers’ handguns. How many anecdotes have we seen that decry how poorly law enforcement officers maintain their current weapons and equipment?

Individual officers who adopt the unusual tend to be far more conscientious about maintaining their weapons and gear. I have known two officers whose personally-owned patrol rifles were chambered for 300 Blackout. Most LEOs wouldn’t know 300 Blackout from Black Rifle coffee, but those two knew why they considered the cartridge to be better than the 223/5.56. I knew sniper who pushed to use a rifle chambered for 6.5 Creedmoor rather than the standard 308 Winchester. All of those officers were also the most proficient shots in their agencies. Would they maintain the optical sights on their duty handguns properly? I can’t be certain, of course, but I’d put money on them rather than the guy who didn’t even clean the dirt off his night sights and from inside his magazines.

If I’ve learned anything from participating on this forum it’s that predictions very often prove to be spectacularly wrong. I’m therefore not predicting anything myself about the future of optical handgun sights. I’m expressing my interest in learning how they will fare in the long run when they become standard issue and not mostly in use by special teams and dedicated enthusiasts. What I think about the subject will have no effect on anything, so I don’t really understand why anyone else would get so upset about my opinion, but to reiterate, I’m expressing my interest and not opinion because I don’t have one.

Edited for clarity.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 44217 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Big Stack
posted Hide Post
If the early adopters are having problems, that would say a lot. If not, it's probably time to open it up to a limited number of "normal" LEOs to see how it does for less gun motivated officers.

The same could be said for civilian CCW. We know there are people CCWing red dotted guns. How are these people doing with them. If the early adopter LEOs and CCWers are doing well, it's probably okay for the next group down the motivation ladder to try them.

quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by BBMW:
I'd like to turn this line of thinking upside down, and ask what has been the experience to date?


Well, that was the essence of my question: Do LEOs ever have problems with optical sights on handguns (handguns, son, handguns: not long guns that are stored and employed much differently)? Are they in common enough use for us to have an answer? Keep in mind that the answer may require that the sights become the rule rather than the exception, for example when a large agency mandates them on all officers’ handguns. How many anecdotes have we seen that decry how poorly law enforcement officers maintain their current weapons and equipment?

Individual officers who adopt the unusual tend to be far more conscientious about maintaining their weapons and gear. I have known two officers whose personally-owned patrol rifles were chambered for 300 Blackout. Most LEOs wouldn’t know 300 Blackout from Black Rifle coffee, but they knew why they considered the cartridge to be better than the 223/5.56. I knew sniper who pushed to use a rifle chambered for 6.5 Creedmoor rather than the standard 308 Winchester. All of those officers were also the most proficient shots in their agencies. Would they maintain the optical sights on their duty handguns properly? I can’t be certain, of course, but I’d put money on them rather than the guy who didn’t even clean the dirt off his night sights and from inside his magazines.

If I’ve learned anything from participating on this forum it’s that predictions very often prove to be spectacularly wrong. I’m therefore not predicting anything myself about the future of optical handgun sights. I’m expressing my interest in learning how they will fare in the long run when they become standard issue and not mostly in use by special teams and dedicated enthusiasts. What I think about the subject will have no effect on anything, so I don’t really understand why anyone else would get so upset about my opinion, but to reiterate, I’m expressing my interest and not opinion because I don’t have one.
 
Posts: 20375 | Registered: November 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Joining this thread late, but...

I'm sure it's been said, training is more important than equipment. However...

Once the (fundamental) training is squared away, if an equipment upgrade (with appropriate training) will provide a tangible advantage, why not? For self-defense, I'll take any advantage I can get, and train to exploit it.

I expect most people who put some training into use of a defensive handgun RDS will find that it provides an advantage in challenging situations.
 
Posts: 829 | Registered: September 21, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sundo:
Joining this thread late, but...

I'm sure it's been said, training is more important than equipment. However...

Once the (fundamental) training is squared away, if an equipment upgrade (with appropriate training) will provide a tangible advantage, why not? For self-defense, I'll take any advantage I can get, and train to exploit it.

I expect most people who put some training into use of a defensive handgun RDS will find that it provides an advantage in challenging situations.


I think this has been covered some in here, but many of us (I have, certainly) found that being proficient with a red dot handgun tends to translation directly to greater proficiency with iron sights, inasmuch as you must have your presentation refined to a fairly high degree. The techniques that help make this work with an RDS gun also work with iron sights.

Scott Jedlinski says that one of the few advantages to iron sights is that they are always in your peripheral vision, and he's right. If you are misaligned, you can usually tell early and correct quickly. If you have not aligned the tiny dot in the tiny window in space in front of your eye, it's going to take a second to find it. Hint: it's most likely high and to the support side). What sucks about that? You had to pass the whole damn target to get it there.
 
Posts: 4143 | Location: Iowa | Registered: February 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Late to the thread, but after long discussions with the training team we are staying with irons when it comes to training Basic Academy cadets. So far none of the agencies we service have mandated RDSs, and our feeling is that the fundamentals are just that. We made add on a familiarization module, as soon as we can find our develop a lesson plan and assessment metric that is robust, valid and reliable.

OTOH, at my side gig working a commercial range, our various and sundry RDS pistols fail at an alarming rate, so I'm a little hinky.
 
Posts: 282 | Registered: June 11, 2018Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by kidcop:

OTOH, at my side gig working a commercial range, our various and sundry RDS pistols fail at an alarming rate, so I'm a little hinky.


What optics are you using on these guns? I think there’s a lot of popularity in Vortex and Sig optics because of the price, warranty (in Vortex’s case) and the fact that they may come from the factory with the optic installed (Sig) but Aaron Cowan from Sage Dynamics is pretty clear in his opinion that the best optics for hard use, like you would see in a law enforcement setting, are the Type 2 RMR and Holosun’s offerings. He goes as far as to lament the quality (or lack of) in the Trijicon SRO in such a setting.

If you’re seeing “alarming” failure rates, I would hazard to guess the issue is what you’ve got on the gun rather than a snapshot of MRDS as a whole.


******************************

May our caskets be made of hundred-year oak, and may we plant those trees tomorrow.
 
Posts: 749 | Registered: January 03, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of RichardC
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by kidcop:

OTOH, at my side gig working a commercial range, our various and sundry RDS pistols fail at an alarming rate, so I'm a little hinky.


Do the pistols themselves malfunction or is it the RDS's on them that fail?

Revolution37, is that info about SRO's on Sage Dynamics website to read, or is there a link to an article he wrote?


_____________________
"Physics is like politics. It puts real effort into fighting imaginary forces." --- Fortnine
 
Posts: 12888 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I kneel for my God,
and I stand for my flag
posted Hide Post
I went to a five day school back in June with 30 other people. A handful had red dots and I was amazed at how well they shot. Those guys were every bit as fast at target aquisition during timed drills as guys with irons, but shot circles around everyone at every distance. I'm new to the red dot on hanguns scene and still have lots of training to do, but I see it as a game changer for my aging eyes.
 
Posts: 1497 | Location: Oregon | Registered: September 25, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted Hide Post
To try to move beyond vague anecdotes I tried an Internet search about optical sights on law enforcement handguns and didn’t find much. The more recent of the two articles linked below is from a year ago and reported on the training and other factors experienced by officers who had used optical sights in duty shootings. The sample size was extremely small (eleven) and there was a large variation in how much training and experience the officers had had with the sights before the incidents. Some officers receive no specialized training at all when transitioning to an optically-sighted handgun(!).

The other article about an instructor’s “train the trainer” course reiterated something that has been reported by others: His training involved “hundreds” of practice draws and presentations to become proficient at being able to find the sight reticle without delay.

What I found particularly interesting was the recommendation in one article that all transition training be conducted at least 10 yards from the target. It was believed that at shorter ranges trainees could/would “cheat” by using point shooting methods without relying on actually finding the reticle when engaging targets.

https://www.police1.com/police...ar-9rMPxzq8oqAaXsXa/

Earlier article about train the trainer training:

https://www.police1.com/police...se-Z3npGcww4ooIaShx/

As I say, this topic has piqued my interest and I’m going to monitor it in the future.




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 44217 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Did some shooting from concealed draws at our range day today at work, and I was able to give my P365 milled for RMRcc setup more of a workout. A few observations:

1) I like this setup.

2) My Vedder IWB holster likes to slip off my Magpul El Buro gun belt, but seems to stay put on my 15yr old leather belt. Weird. Not fun when you draw from concealment and your holster is still on your pistol. But that's why we have training days.

3) Shooting facing the sun posed some problems with my RMRcc, as the front sight was hard to pick up through the glass when the sun was hitting it. Combine this with a less than perfect presentation and I spent more time looking for the dot than I'd like. A clean presentation (reps...) would alleviate this issue, and once I picked up the dot it was plenty bright even in full, very hot (103-ish today, I believe) sun.

4) It is amazing how much fun it is to intentionally put very creative rounds on your co-workers target when he's shooting next to you, and impressive how much easier this is with a dot setup.


________________
tempus edax rerum
 
Posts: 1227 | Location: Oregon | Registered: March 18, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8  
 

SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  SIG Pistols    Optics vs Iron Sights on Defensive Pistols

© SIGforum 2021