I don't have a strong opinion one way or another. Dots work great, irons work great.
I don't currently have any defensive or carry pistols with dots for one reason.
$$$
After milling slides, purchasing a quality dot, and then ammo for proficiency training then I'd still need to replace holsters. That's a pretty penny when it all adds up. That and I like the holsters I have.
Now I also like to keep spares and have my carry pistol match my nightstand pistol so now I have maybe 3 pistols I need to outfit.
Shooting performance aside, being a cheap bastard I can be happy with irons.

I wear tri-focal eyeglasses. My carry guns have optics only because my glasses are optimized for 10 yards in the central focal, so front-sight focus doesn’t work. It was a Yes/No choice and required retraining my muscles from scratch.

I shoot my range guns (everything I had before the change) with their irons and prescription protective glasses optimized for front sight focus.

Vortex, which is a big optics company, didn't really have a good option for a CCW optic. I really don't consider the Venom or Viper robust enough for CCW. Seeing that sales in this market, they now have a product intended for it. Seems a little different. They're trying to cover both the thinner and thicker carry guns with the same size body. So some overhang will happen with the microcompacts. I don't know how competitive this will be.

https://vortexoptics.com/defen...e-3~MOA~Defender~Dot

Random Youtube review:

^^^^ Vortex's website says nothing about battery life. Strange.

A different video said 9000 hours.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
^^^^ Vortex's website says nothing about battery life. Strange.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
A different video said 9000 hours.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
^^^^ Vortex's website says nothing about battery life. Strange.

Vortex's own video?

It is interesting the portions of the Vortex that are identical to the 407K/507K (the overall housing including the integrated rear sight as well as the parts that are different (button placement and top load battery).

I would really love to see Vortex get serious about the pistol optics market. I talked to one of their guys at a class last year and got the company line that they could not talk specifics about future products, but they are always developing things.

Edit:

Saw some comparison pics of this new Vortex and the Holosun 407K/507K and the Vortex has quite a bit bigger window. I am intrigued.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: DaBigBR,

No. ARFCOM. See below. Go to around he 7 minute mark to cut to the chase. I found the "official" video. No mention of battery life.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
A different video said 9000 hours.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
^^^^ Vortex's website says nothing about battery life. Strange.

Vortex's own video?

I mean I get that we are spoiled by the 50,000 hour benchmark Aimpoint brought us so many years ago but is a solid year of battery life not to mention it goes to sleep when not in use really that bad. It’s like 4 bucks a year to run the thing all said and just change out when you do the smoke detectors.

I mean I get there is competition in the market and yeah I’d probably buy a competitor too but the reality is a solid year isn’t all that bad in practical terms.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryanp225:
I don't have a strong opinion one way or another. Dots work great, irons work great.
I don't currently have any defensive or carry pistols with dots for one reason.
$$$
After milling slides, purchasing a quality dot, and then ammo for proficiency training then I'd still need to replace holsters. That's a pretty penny when it all adds up. That and I like the holsters I have.
Now I also like to keep spares and have my carry pistol match my nightstand pistol so now I have maybe 3 pistols I need to outfit.
Shooting performance aside, being a cheap bastard I can be happy with irons.

If I could have still ran iron sights I think I would because of your point. But you can get away with 1 gun that is carry and nightstand. I like how you think about needing 3 though.

Garand Thumb and Modern Samari.

Worth the watch to explain why dots work.

Doing some more shooting with slide mount optics, I’m really enjoying it. After about 10yrds, the optic really helps me when shooting B8 targets. At my skill level, it’s an advantage but hard to say how much given I seldom can shoot the same course of fire back to back to compare.

As with all guns that are shot a lot, Optic sights or not, I suggest a pair. A practice gun and a carry or competition gun. Stuff breaks and batteries die so put the wear and tear on one gun and have a spare that gets limited use.

I do find the optic helps me to shoot in a more target focused manner and seems to speed things up.

The only reason I don’t have more pistols with dots is cost. Only two guns I have are premilled.

quote:

On a rifle optics / dots add so little relative bulk and add so much extra capability it was a fairly fast adoption.
On a handgun an optic adds a fair bit of bulk relative to the gun and you are still largely using handguns at common handgun ranges where iron sights are not likely as much of a detriment vs a rifle and rifle ranges.

Pretty good synopsis of current offerings in sighting equipment. I'd be interested in police issued/use of optics and weapon mounted lights too, for that matter. My bedside gun, a P226 has a light attached that I find useful, but wonder if LEO's are so equipped. Rod

quote:

My bedside gun, a P226 has a light attached that I find useful, but wonder if LEO's are so equipped.

My current duty gun is a full-size P320 with a Sig Romeo 1 Pro and a TLR-1. It's a big sucker, but I'm not trying to conceal it, and the extra size isn't really noticeable in comparison to all the other stuff we carry. It's also only 1.5oz heavier fully loaded than my previous duty gun, a non-rail P229 in .40. 1.5oz is not a bad trade for a light, an optic, and 5 more rounds.

Pretty much everybody around here has had weapon lights for years. Our entire full-time staff transitioned to optic equipped guns last year...being small has its advantages. A couple of other much larger local agencies are looking to do the same. Their instructors already have them, they're just trying to figure out funding and logistics for the rest of their staff.

For home defense or open/OWB holster carry, I can see an optic being ok, however, I have yet to see an optic that wouldn't completely obstruct the irons. (there may exist something, its not something I'm looking into) I love my Buckmark with a Vortex Venom, but we're talking defensive pistols here. On a rifle, you generally have an optic co-witnessed to iron sites or some type of backup iron sites. I would want that capability in an optic for any type of defensive pistol. I would also want something much smaller for a concealed pistol. I imagine in time, this will be worked out.

quote:

Originally posted by barndg00:
For home defense or open/OWB holster carry, I can see an optic being ok, however, I have yet to see an optic that wouldn't completely obstruct the irons. (there may exist something, its not something I'm looking into) I love my Buckmark with a Vortex Venom, but we're talking defensive pistols here. On a rifle, you generally have an optic co-witnessed to iron sites or some type of backup iron sites. I would want that capability in an optic for any type of defensive pistol. I would also want something much smaller for a concealed pistol. I imagine in time, this will be worked out.

Most optics require supressor-height iron sights for co-witness, but those are readily available, and most are not as huge or obtrusive as one would think. I have Sig supressor-height irons on my duty gun and another RMR-equipped P320 that I regularly carry off-duty IWB, and while I wouldn't opt for them if I didn't have the optic, they haven't posted a problem.

Holosun now makes the SCS that fits a Glock MOS cut and co-witnesses with the factory irons. IIRC they also just released one for the H&K VP9. I'm really hoping that they eventually get around to making something like that for the Sig or Beretta as I'd like to give it a try.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
Holosun now makes the SCS that fits a Glock MOS cut and co-witnesses with the factory irons. IIRC they also just released one for the H&K VP9. I'm really hoping that they eventually get around to making something like that for the Sig or Beretta as I'd like to give it a try.

They also have one for M&P and are showing an SCS for Sig 320 "coming soon". In addition to avoiding plates and tall sights, getting the optic down low to where you expect sights to be can really help. I know it does for me.

quote:

Originally posted by barndg00:
For home defense or open/OWB holster carry, I can see an optic being ok, however, I have yet to see an optic that wouldn't completely obstruct the irons. (there may exist something, its not something I'm looking into) I love my Buckmark with a Vortex Venom, but we're talking defensive pistols here. On a rifle, you generally have an optic co-witnessed to iron sites or some type of backup iron sites. I would want that capability in an optic for any type of defensive pistol. I would also want something much smaller for a concealed pistol. I imagine in time, this will be worked out.

Or here’s a novel idea.

Actually train with a defensive pistol, with a dot made for defensive purposes, and learn what to do if you have an occluded/obstructed dot.

So in the vein of of this topic, let me offer the following personal observation. I've been using the Trijicon RMR on several pistols, so when the SRO came out I got one. The SRO sits slightly higher than the RMR, so instead of a 1\3, I how have a 1\5 cowitness. Not unusable, bit it took some getting used to. The end result is I'm more dependant on the optic because BUIS is a little more difficult to use. I e-mailed several sight manufacturers about this, and their unified response was if they made their BUIS sets any taller they would start running into equipment compatability issues. As always, I end up quoting Musashi, 'the way is in training'.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones
Or here’s a novel idea.

Actually train with a defensive pistol, with a dot made for defensive purposes, and learn what to do if you have an occluded/obstructed dot.

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:
So in the vein of of this topic, let me offer the following personal observation. I've been using the Trijicon RMR on several pistols, so when the SRO came out I got one. The SRO sits slightly higher than the RMR, so instead of a 1\3, I how have a 1\5 cowitness. Not unusable, bit it took some getting used to. The end result is I'm more dependant on the optic because BUIS is a little more difficult to use. I e-mailed several sight manufacturers about this, and their unified response was if they made their BUIS sets any taller they would start running into equipment compatability issues. As always, I end up quoting Musashi, 'the way is in training'.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones
Or here’s a novel idea.

Actually train with a defensive pistol, with a dot made for defensive purposes, and learn what to do if you have an occluded/obstructed dot.

How high is your current sight? The cowitness doesn't have to be the exact same height. As long as you see it when you are using the dot then you learn what hold over you need. With that said there are.planty of front sights around .4" that should work with any optic.