Yes, anecdotes and failures to account for the experience levels of officers who are the first to adopt optics are the big questions I have. As I’ve said before, when many (most?) officers won’t even clean their guns after a range session, what will be the state of optics on LE guns five years from now? If I’m still here to learn the answer, that’s something I will be very interested in.

My agency may be switching and if it comes to that I’ll support it fully because that’s my job.
But I’ll also be paying attention.

I've got optics on most all my semi-autos. I have Holosuns on my two Shadow Systems 9mms. I wrote about them on another thread.

I was at my favorite LGS and saw a Springfield 1911, 45ACP, that someone had reworked with an optics cut, a Vortex red dot, (I'd prefer the Holosun, but....) a nice grip safety and a couple of other things including aluminum grips, and a nice (but not crazy light) trigger on it.

I am gonna try to get to the range this week and see how it works. Thinking about using it for a "truck gun" in my SUV (sold my truck) or another house gun.

I am liking the optics, but training (for me training means lots of dry fire in drawing or raising the gun so the reticle is right there just like the front sight was when using irons) is real important.

I'm trying to make it as smooth and natural as it is for me to raise an iron sighted gun up and see the front sight centered on the target. That takes, at least for me, lots of practice.

Bob

Well shit Jupiter if you are going to quote me at least quote the entire relevant post not just your cherry picked version.

quote:

"Dots are here to stay but I don’t believe that will become as ubiquitous as they are on rifles.

I basically put an optic, dot or otherwise, on nearly every rifle I consider real use. I don’t do the same with pistols. Nor do I expect I will in the future. And I like dots on handguns. But becoming the norm? I don’t think so."

I don't think they are as useful on pistols as they are on rifles. I wouldn't build an AR today without an optic, most likely a dot. They are that good on rifles. Without saying a number, lets just say I have dots on about 5% of my pistol collection. Various manufacturers only one of which I consider junk and that was given away a couple years ago (original deltapoint). I don't necessarily see them as the norm because of threads like this. Plenty of people absolutely push back on the benefits. They cost extra, they require to at least pretend to practice with them, and they amplify your flaws. Lots of people don't like that. They like to say "I would have made that shot when I had younger eyes". With a dot you don't need younger eyes, you need trigger control.

I am not sure if I was right a year and a half ago when I typed that. I certainly am not sure I was wrong. I know they aren't the norm yet, regardless of how many guns come with optics plates. Younger shooters are growing up with them, if they become the norm it will be with them. This bunch of dinosaurs can't even recognize the obvious benefits. Hell, some of my guns will never have a dot even if they could because of aesthetics. How dumb is that? (put a dot on a 92 and you will see what I mean)


As for your last bolded quote about gimmicks, it LITERALLY was the fucking question he asked in the original post. Did you fucking read the OP? Here you go in case you missed it, Option #2 "No. All you need are good old fashioned irons, and optics are just a gimmick".

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Well shit Jupiter if you are going to quote me at least quote the entire relevant post not just your cherry picked version.

How about we get back to discussing "Optics Vs Iron Sights on Defensive Pistols" and drop everything else?
Sounds good to me.

TheHumbleMarksman on YouTube has some nice thoughts on this:

Well this one is sure headed sideways.

I've seen a bunch of "you don't need a dot" and/or "do you really need a dot?" posts, videos, and articles lately regarding optics on defensive guns.

It's a tiring argument/question.

Nobody really knows if you "need" it. Nobody knows what your fight will be. The same is true for magazines of X capacity, weapon lights, handheld lights, extended controls, a better trigger, and all manner of other things.

Statistically, you're probably fine with no gun at all. Statistically, even if you end up needing a gun, you're probably fine with a .38 revolver. "Statistics are cool comfort for the man who just got struck by lightning."

Personally, I'm going to do everything I can to improve my chances of winning when the statistics do not prove out for me. That means things like bigger and more magazines, a weapon light, an optic, etc. It also means taking classes, teaching classes, watching video of shootings, and going to the range.

I experienced this when I joined the Guard in 2006. It seems current support MOS training had instructors adjusting sights to get Soldiers off the range as quickly as possible. Not a good thing if you want someone to actually know what they're doing.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Another issue is I think the vast majority of RDS users, both pistol and rifle, don’t have a lot of understanding of how the particular system works. Everything is click begging. If they are not properly zeroed, they look at the instructor for “how many clicks boss” and not the understanding of X click equals Y movement. Or what this particular zero does over that one.

Says the guy who fucking quoted me 7 fucking times to make a point on the last page. Oh fucking brother. Yea ok, put me on ignore, do us both a favor.

I have only owned one truly bad dot. Deltapoint. The original was so bad, so hard to zero, it was insane. Even my cheap dot that came as a freebie when I bought a 22 worked pretty well. It was as big a half roll of toilet paper but it worked. Tasco, maybe. True dot?

I am looking forward to this new bunch of dots that are thin enough to not require suppressor height sights. I don't open carry so I have never NEEDED a closed emitter on my handgun but I can see the value. When these things get to where you can use normal irons and the closed emitter is figured out there will only be one issue left for me. Standardize the mounting footprint. At least among common size footprints. Please.

My 322 has a borrowed from another gun 507k. I think I am going to try out a Romeo Zero Elite (?) on this one. They are never in stock but the price is right and this gun is a straight plinker so if the Romeo sucks I haven't lost anything.

Yea, I think VSO guy really doesn't get it.

quote:

Originally posted by DanH:
TheHumbleMarksman on YouTube has some nice thoughts on this:

[FLASH_VIDEO]<iframe frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/6Rz35Cplk7M" title="YouTube video player" width="560"></iframe>[/FLASH_VIDEO]

I think we as a species ask all of the wrong questions sometimes by nature.

I know I am guilty as can be of it.

Has anyone seen the Holosun EPS / EPS Carry in the wild yet. They seem to have a lot of features to recommend them. But they still seem to be unobtainium at this point.

If the opportunity ever presents itself, go take a class with Scott Jedlinski of Modern Samurai Project. One of the most well-rounded pistol optics shooters out there. Kinda fast too.

https://youtube.com/shorts/hn9kP8Ii2Vc?feature=share

quote:

Originally posted by Abn556:
I shoot with an older buddy who uses red dots on his carry P365XL due to deteriorating vision. I don’t use them as I can still shoot well without needing them. Subject to change of course. If I start struggling to see the front sight, maybe I get an optic.

+

I'm trying a green dot because the front sight is fuzzy probably related to needing reading glasses. I watched a video from a guy with a lot of experience stating the benefit of the dot is you are focusing on the target instead of the front sight. Hoping this works for me.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
Has anyone seen the Holosun EPS / EPS Carry in the wild yet. They seem to have a lot of features to recommend them. But they still seem to be unobtainium at this point.

They have appeared in small quantities at large retailers like Big Tex, Primary Arms, and Kenzie's Optics. I believe that only the red versions have been shipped, but I could be wrong.

Midway had Svenson Glock Gen 3 19 slides cut for Vortex Venom on sale for $79. I bought one and a Glock slide build kit. That way, I can have two separate slides for my G19 and I can spend more time learning the red dot.

I just put the new Holosun SCS on my G/19 gen 5 mos the sight works great u can see it well out side in the sunlight or in doors it`s always there and can shoot with it but it has a learning curve at least for me .

Define being on defense, define defensive pistol and define the situation.

Up close and personal within 10 feet. You may not notice the sites on your pistol as that's when point shooting should be active.

A dear friend was recently in an up close and personal situation. He was hit four times with a .45acp. Fortunately the assailant sucked at point shooting, sight alignment, sight picture and target acquisition. None the less my friend still had four points of impact and was bleeding.

quote:

Originally posted by TN Mark:
Define being on defense

Reacting to an attack on yourself, or others you want to protect, with force meant to disrupt and/or defeat the attack

quote:

define defensive pistol

A pistol whose design, configuration, and disposition (how it's stored/carried) are meant to optimize it's use in a defensive situation

quote:

and define the situation.

You can't until you're actually in it. You can assume what situations you might face. But in the end, you'll only know when it actually occurs.

quote:

Up close and personal within 10 feet. You may not notice the sites on your pistol as that's when point shooting should be active.

You'll do what your train and practice to do. If you train yourself to use your sights in a high stress, short range situation, you'll uses them. It won't matter whether that's the optimal response. If you train enough, you'll follow your training.

Made a small edit below

quote:

A dear friend was recently in an up close and personal situation. He was hit four times with a .45acp. Fortunately the assailant sucked at point shooting, sight alignment, sight picture and target acquisition shooting . None the less my friend still had four points of impact and was bleeding.

I bet he wasn't using the sights either. I'm Not trying to by snide here. I'm glad your friend made it. But I think he made it because of general lack of skill on his assailant's part, not lack of a particular skill.

I think the long time iron sight shooters have a harder time transitioning to the dot than brand new shooters who have only shot with a dot. A retired TX Ranger buddy of mine has a firearms training company. Their biggest client is school districts where they teach teachers how to shoot. He says the brand new shooters using dots out perform those without dots 99% of the time.

I've been a long time hold out because I didn't want to put in the work to master the dot on a pistol. Now I own 4 sigs, one Atlas, one Glock and a Ruger wearing an optic.

The Sig Academy also put out a video on this called The Red Dot Revolution:



The other thing difficult with red dots on handguns is getting the right sized dot. While going with a small dot is the right call on a rifle, going with a larger dot on a handgun makes it easier to find and doesn’t affect accuracy at handgun distances like a 6-10 MOA dot on a rifle would make shots at 100/200/300 yards more difficult.