Thought this might be useful for new shooters or those who haven't shot in this type of "practical" competition before. My son and I shot a local match last weekend and it was his first.

We had drilled the range commands previously, and practiced shooting and moving to different positions safely, and emphasized finger well outside the trigger guard and muzzle well downrange during movement.

The first two stages he shot well and moved safely and carefully, but on the third there was a bit of a challenge with the 180 due to a barrier on the left and a required position forward of the position to the left and rearward of the barrier.

As he moved back/left, he kept both hands on his pistol and the muzzle moved past the 180-degree line that is generally considered safe (unless the stage briefing specifically dictates otherwise and there are markers to indicate muzzle safe points).

The SO was behind him and didn't see the violation, but I did, and since it was something we'd specifically gone over during the walkthrough (and because he did indeed break the 180), I chose to have him DQed for the match. He took it well, and I hope he learned.

It's difficult to understand what it's like when the beeper/timer goes off in a match unless you've done it. Your IQ drops by 50 points when the adrenaline hits.

Anyway, here's a video for any interested.

https://youtu.be/P8tMjYJZBW8

Hopefully as it was a local match after he was DQed he was allowed to finish the match. At a match a Master shooter came a long distance only to pass his hand in front of the muzzle while opening a door on a stage. Yes, he was officially DQed but it was only fair to let him shoot the match anyway for fun and practice.

One of the things I remember from my orientation class at our gun club.... guy was shooting a match and finished... has shot a real high score and if he did not win then he was gong to be at the very top... he was done and went back up to club house to wait on the results... and popped the top on a beer. No alcohol allowed before or during a match of course... hat just taken a few swigs and got called back down tot he range... seems there was tie and he and the other guy needed to shoot again. He disqualified himself.....

quote:

Originally posted by SCfromNY:
Hopefully as it was a local match after he was DQed he was allowed to finish the match. At a match a Master shooter came a long distance only to pass his hand in front of the muzzle while opening a door on a stage. Yes, he was officially DQed but it was only fair to let him shoot the match anyway for fun and practice.

Disagree. He has proven himself dangerous and should not be allowed to shoot any more that day.

I saw the "He is a master class shooter and has traveled a long way to this match, so we let him shoot for no score." card played. Wrong.

I once had to tell a Safety Officer that either the guy who had just swept me left or I would. He grudgingly sat his buddy down.

As RO I once DQed a three gunner who slung his shotgun back over his shoulder right in my face to reload. I later noticed his scores posted with only a DNF for that one stage of a match organized by his clique. I never went back.

Just last month as matches resumed in Covid Reopening, an out of practice friend bypassed a port and turned around to go back to it. DQ.

You just can't be Mr Nice Guy on safety.

That definitely deserved a trip to Dairy Queen. Sucks, but it was the right call. I bet he won't make that mistake again. Where I shoot a DQ means you are DONE for the day. Take your gun off, put your gear away and help tape, paste, score, etc for the rest of the day. Where was the second RO? That's the person that should've caught that.

By you guys are tough....

I guess when a cop pulls you over for speeding or making an illegal turn you hand them your drivers license and call someone to come pick you up right?

I watched that video segment several times and have no idea what the shooter did wrong.

I suppose at a match it would be explained where the "180" line is, but otherwise I would have been out as well.
I am curious, though, what shooting discipline that was.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
I watched that video segment several times and have no idea what the shooter did wrong.

I suppose at a match it would be explained where the "180" line is, but otherwise I would have been out as well.
I am curious, though, what shooting discipline that was.

The 180 is almost always a "moving" 180, which is parallel to your position as you move forward and back within the shooting bay. So from your position, straight out to your sides. So you generally can move your muzzle and shoot any targets that are within that 180 degree arc in front of you and to your sides, but not AT ALL behind you. so the 180 degrees behind you are verboten. The 180 is relative to the bay, not to your face. In other words, it can slide forward and back within the bay as your position changes, but as you rotate the gun left and right, the 180 doesn't rotate. Does that make sense?

As right handed shooters move to their left, particularly when reloading, they have a tendency to bring their muzzle back past that 180. Rifle shooters running with both hands on the gun often bump up against and past the 180 and get DQed.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Watson:

quote:

Originally posted by SCfromNY:
Hopefully as it was a local match after he was DQed he was allowed to finish the match. At a match a Master shooter came a long distance only to pass his hand in front of the muzzle while opening a door on a stage. Yes, he was officially DQed but it was only fair to let him shoot the match anyway for fun and practice.

Disagree. He has proven himself dangerous and should not be allowed to shoot any more that day.

I saw the "He is a master class shooter and has traveled a long way to this match, so we let him shoot for no score." card played. Wrong.

Agreed. You get DQed you're done shooting for the day. Everyone knows that. At least everyone I shoot with. Nobody takes it personally and usually they stay to help tape and tear down, etc.

If you let them keep shooting... what's the point of the DQ? How do they learn anything?

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
By you guys are tough....

I guess when a cop pulls you over for speeding or making an illegal turn you hand them your drivers license and call someone to come pick you up right?

Not an apt analogy. If you lose your license (for a time) and keep driving, that's more along the lines of shooting the match after you do something that merits a DQ.

quote:

Originally posted by 1KPerDay:
Does that make sense?

Thanks for trying to explain it, but no, it doesn’t.
I could explain why I thought he handled the gun safely, but that would serve no purpose if I don’t know where the 180 line is, and your description doesn’t make that clear. I believe I’d have to have it demonstrated on the ground.

I attended an informal event a few weeks ago and the 180 line there was demonstrated, and that was clear. That event didn’t, however, involve changing direction by 90 degrees along the course to engage targets, and how the 180 line changes—or doesn’t change—as the shooter’s direction of movement changes is evidently what I don’t understand.

Thanks anyway. (I am still curious, though, what type of match that was.)

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by 1KPerDay:
Does that make sense?

Thanks for trying to explain it, but no, it doesn’t.
I could explain why I thought he handled the gun safely, but that would serve no purpose if I don’t know where the 180 line is, and your description doesn’t make that clear.

Yes, There’s a often difference between what is strictly safe, and what is against the rules and merits a DQ in competition.

He didn’t put anyone in danger. His muzzle never covered anything he was unwilling to shoot. However, a 180 violation is an arbitrary standard at most matches since it’s easier to hold people to the 180 rather than have to set muzzle safe points with cones or whatever at every Stage.

If you think of a shooting bay as an inverted U with the squad at the open end and the targets somewhere in the U, the 180 is a line drawn across the open ends of the U. Except it can slide up or down as the shooter moves into and out of the U. But he can never shoot behind himself, even if it’s technically safe as there are berms on both sides, forming the sides of the U.

Not sure if that helps clarify.

Bottom line is a 180 violation is not necessarily a true safety violation, particularly if the muzzle doesn’t sweep anyone and/or a round is discharged into a berm. But those are the rules, and if you are rattled enough to not be able to keep your muzzle within the 180, you are judged to merit a DQ.

Our local club is USSL affiliated. It was a handgun match.

http://ussleagues.com/

1K - The same thing happened to my daughter's first boyfriend. I thought I would take him to a local indoor match. I schooled him prior to the match and also had another member give him a thorough safety briefing. Almost identical to your son - a barrel on the left side which required a step back and movement to the left. Anyway, I did show him that we UFOs (ugly, fat, and old) could still move and shoot. He broke up with my daughter later that year!

Sigfreund, this pic explains the 180 easier than any amount of typing.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Thanks for trying to explain it, but no, it doesn’t.

There is an invisible plane through your body extending outwards in all directions. The plane is always parallel to the back berm, and perpendicular to both side berms. [This assumes the bay is an open rectangle (open at the back)]. When you move forward, your plane moves with you, remaining parallel to the back berm (likewise if you move backwards). Your muzzle must never break that plane in the rearward direction.
 
Which way you are facing or shooting (perhaps at an angle) is irrelevant.

It is unfortunately common to see a "flat" stage requiring shots hard right or left already close to the 180. There are other "shooter traps" that can be written into a USPSA match.

I say priority one is don't hurt anybody, don't scare anybody, don't get disqualified.

I've seen a lot folks DQ'd at matches from novices to the Masters. Seen it at USPSA, 3-gun and IDPA. I never thought I'd get DQ'd but did once and deserved it. I spent the rest of the match supporting the squad and pasting targets while eating a large pie of crow...

I got a DQ at an IDPA match last year. It was a small match, slow night, mostly older hands. When I heard "STOP!" I stopped, unloaded and showed clear and was informed I'd broken the 180.

I hadn't. I'm not in the habit of arguing the point, as generally I see it as poor sportsmanship, and the decision of the RO is final, anyway.

In this case, however, the RO noted, "Well, you didn't actually break it, but you might have (if I kept going), so I I just called it."

The thing is, I didn't. The target was to the left, moving along a barrier, and I was lining up on the target, which was not at the 180 (it was close to it). To say it was a DQ because I might have continued to turn and violate the 180 is idiotic; either I broke it or I didn't, and the RO came back to say I didn't. Still DQ'd.

Again, I didn't argue it or protest it; a friend noted that he would have. To suggest that it's a good lesson to ensure one doesn't break the 180 later is...bullshit. A man isn't speeding, but he's ticketed anyway for speeding...to encourage him from speeding at some future date? Bullshit. Either it is, or isn't...but call a spade a spade. Not sorta like a spade, so mostly spade-ish. That's bullshit.

Yeah that’s a total dick move.