Pardon my ignorance, I don't know very much at all about revolvers.

I was under the impression that the S&W Model 19 and 65 were very similar mechanically. I'm referring to the trigger mechanism.

I had was at the range today with some friends and had the opportunity to compare somebody's 19 with my 65.

I was surprised to find that the DA trigger on the 19 was about eleventy-bazillion times smoother and lighter than the DA on the 65. The 19 was so much nicer and easier to shoot. I couldn't believe the difference. It's like the difference between my Gray Guns P228 and a plain vanilla SIG, but even more so.

On the other hand, the SA trigger on the 65 was noticeably nicer than the SA on the 19. Enough of a difference to be readily apparent, but nowhere near the magnitude of difference as the DA.

What, if anything, can I do to make the 65 as nice to shoot in DA as the 19?

On another note, it would appear as if the used 65 has had a steady diet of .38 SPL in its former life. I say this because I had no problem with .38 SPL ammunition, but .357 magnum would not load all the way into the cylinder with a reasonable amount of force. The same ammunition loaded and fired in the 19 with no problem.

I guess I have a cylinder cleaning job ahead of me. Any special instructions for dealing with this? Just Hoppes and a regular cleaning brush? Soak the chambers with Hoppes and let it sit for a day or so? Ballistol? Or ... ???

The model 19 and 65 are both K Frame Smith & Wessons. The only difference between the 2 are the metal they are made from. 19 carbon steel and the 65 is stainless steel. The triggers mechanisms are mechanically identical. There could be differences in trigger face and hammers. And of course the 19 has an adjustable rear sight and the 65 is just the channel in the top strap for a rear sight.

There can be differences in individual revolvers trigger pulls depending on when they were made as far as tolerances. The triggers can smooth out over time and/or a gunsmith might do a trigger job on an individual gun.

There can be a lot of reasons why one felt differently than the other but it's not because they are different, they are not.

Thanks, John. I had thought that, as you stated, the two models are mechanically the same.

So, why the yuuuge difference in trigger feel? Best of my knowledge, the 19 has had no enhancement work done to it. My friend, who owns it, is not really a gun guy. He bought it maybe 15 years ago from a retired cop who told him that as a store owner, he should have a gun. It has sat untouched for that time until I invited him to shoot with us today.

Is smoothing and lightning the DA on the Model 65 something that I, as a neophyte, can do? Or does this require the attention of A Trained Professional? If so, is there anybody who is known as "the Bruce Gray of S&W Revolvers?" Preferably somebody with a reasonably quick turn-around time, as I am 80 and don't know how much time I have left.

As noted both are K frame revolvers. The 65 is stainless while the 19 is blued. The 65 has a fixed rear sight while the 19 has a adjustable rear.

Sound like the 65 needs a good brushing to clean up that cylinder.

You may want to try some wolff springs to lighten up that DA trigger.

Have you owned the 19 since day 1? My guess is that someone did a trigger job on it.

Back in the late 70's, we were issued Model 67's, with 158 gr round nose lead +P in LAPD. Department policy required it to be neutered to double action only but apart from that, it was a great revolver. They're was no way they trust us (patrol)with a .357 round or .357 capable revolver :-)

Revolvers wear differently, as do different steels. It may depend on how each was fired, and some people use, or used to use, such things as graphite on the action. This is kind of like a Glock 25 cent trigger job.

Clean the gun thoroughly. This includes removing the side plate, or, at a minimum, spraying something like brake cleaner in to get the gunk out. De-lead the chambers, there is a lead removal tool for this or you can use a bronze phospate screen and a 1/4 inch dowel rod. The rod with the screening folded over the end like a cleaning patch is forced thru the chambers, using a rubber or rawhide mallet if needed. Before you do this, remove the cylinder so you don't damage the crane.

I'm certain the cylinder face has a lot of brass rings on the stainless revolver. A Flitz cloth or a very mild abrasive cream on a toothbrush will remove this with some work (not a lot). I have used Simi cream on a Dremel cloth polishing wheel at very low speeds with good results.

Also keep in mind that carbon steel and stainless steel have different properties.

If these steps don't enhance the function and trigger pull, you can always drop in a Wolff spring kit. They're cheap and easy to install.

Try these steps and I'm sure the gun will become easier to shoot. If not, speak up again and someone wiser than I will likely give you better advice.

There will be tremendous variation in examples of mass produced guns due to tolerance stacking and two k frames having very different trigger feel is not a surprise at all. Also check the tightness of the strain screw ( screw in front of the lower grip frame) for 100% reliability it needs to be tightened down fully. It is possible the screw on the 19 is loose.
I have two j frames that are vastly different regarding trigger pull weight and the same is the case which th my three k frames they all vary

As has been said, there can be a lot of variation in trigger pulls between revolvers. Wear differences, when they were made, etc.

The easiest way to improve the trigger pull on the 65 is to take it to a good gunsmith for a trigger job. S&W offers trigger packages, but I don't know what their turnaround time is. While I don't have experience with them, a couple of good S&W revolversmiths I'm aware of are Denny Reichard at Sand Burr Gun Ranch in Indiana and Karl Sokol of Chestnut Mountain Sports in Vermont; I don't know what their turnaround times are, either. I'm sure a little research can help you find a good gunsmith in your area.

DIY, your best bet is going to be to change out the mainspring and rebound spring with lighter ones. You can get spring kits so you can try different spring weights to find something that will meet your needs while still firing reliably. Changing springs will lighten the pull, but they may not necessarily make the pull smoother.

Important DIY notes: 1) Learn how to properly remove the sideplate. It's not difficult and involves removing the screws and tapping the frame to lift up the sideplate, not prying it off. 2) The rebound spring can be tricky to replace. I believe Jerry Miculek has a video on YouTube for changing springs that might help. He also has a trigger job instruction DVD if you want to go beyond spring changes, but I can't say how easy/difficult it would be.

Regarding the difficulty in chambering a .357 Magnum cartridge...if you shoot .38 Special in a .357 Magnum revolver, you have to do a thorough job of cleaning the chambers as .38s can leave build-up at the front of the chamber since they have shorter cases than .357 Magnums. That build-up can prevent .357 rounds from being chambered.

Real answer in trigger feel between the two is probably much easier than any of the above: check tension spring screw at bottom inside of grip frame. It is put there to adjust exactly what you were noticing.

With all those little pieces inside that have to fit and rub together "just so," even a tiny variation, not even visible to the naked eye, can make a difference. One revolver might come off the assembly line OK, but the next one - even the very next one - might not. Maybe yours was built on the proverbial Friday or Monday.

quote:

Real answer in trigger feel between the two is probably much easier than any of the above: check tension spring screw at bottom inside of grip frame. It is put there to adjust exactly what you were noticing.

The strain screw is to put and maintain tension or a preload on the mainspring. If it were to loosen up and back out, the gun stops working altogether. It is supposed to be cinched down tight at all times. If you want to lower pull weight, either shorten the strain screw by grinding a little bit off the tip (I would personally not do this), or install a lighter mainspring.

Yes, similar mechanically but consider the many different hammer / trigger combinations S&W used and all actions are not equal. There are target hammers, medium sized hammers etc. Then wide triggers, grooved triggers, smooth triggers, etc. Some of those combos were subjectively better than others. The vintage 19's I've used all had wonderful triggers. Swapping lighter tension springs (Wilson combat has kits) on most K/L frames, gets them close to 19 nirvana. Btw, is it me are used model 19's in good shape ever harded to find?

IMHO...a K frame makes a great 38 Special. Not so great a 357. My 19 is fed 38s.

Date of manufacture also is a factor. I handled many new model 19's and model 64's and 65's right out the box when revolvers were standard police issue and I could feel the difference in the actions when they were new. S&W had some highly skilled craftsmen building these revolvers back in the day. They took great pride in the fit and finish of those revolvers. Sadly, many of those craftsmen have long since retired.

Both are fine dependable revolvers but the Model 19's and Model 15's got more attention at the factory. The Model 19 is a .357 offspring of the Model 15 Combat Masterpiece and the earlier guns would have received the same care. The Model 65 is more on the lines of the model 10 service pistol without refinements and I don't believe they received as much time on the gunmaker's bench before being shipped.

With that said a model 64 or 65 can be smooth as silk with use, or from the skilled hands of a revolver smith. Never loosen the spring tension screw on a defensive revolver or you may not get reliable ignition. We saw many misfires in training and qualification caused by screwing with spring pressure. The trick is to tune (polish) the action without ever reducing any of the spring pressure, and that is not a self help project.

What I do on all my Smiths is to take .020" off the stain screw, polish the rebound slide, and channel, and install a 14lb rebound spring.

Very big difference.

Bob

It may need an internal clean and lube, that would be worth trying, or you may need to send it to a smith for some polishing. You could also try some try fire to see if it smooths out. I have a 19, and it is very smooth in both DA and SA.

As for the chamber, dip a .38 brush in Hoppes, brush the chambers and swab. One or two brushings should slick them up just fine.

Thanks for the emailed range report. I'm sorry I couldn't join y'all yesterday. The gun is in beautiful shape, but probably wasn't shot much, or cleaned much by the last owner. I'd give it a thorough going over and shoot it a good bit before investing in a trigger job.

My stainless Rugers are not as smooth as my carbon steel Smith, but they are pretty good, and have smoothed out over time, particularly the .357 GP 100 which I shoot DA much more than the .44 Redhawk which I usually shoot SA. It's kind of apples and oranges, as they have different trigger and spring systems, but stainless does feel a little different but it will (or can be) smoothed out nicely.

Congrats on the nice pinned and recessed Smith.

Don't try to take the sideplate off unless you know what you're doing. It isn't difficult to do if you know how, but you sure don't want to try to pry it off. It will bend and then you're screwed. The sideplate screws on that gun are fitted. Keep track of which hole they came out of and put them back where they came from.

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Agreed. If you do take off the side plate, you remove the screws then tap on the side of grip portion of the frame, and the side plate slowly comes off.

And get the correct sized bit for the screws, don't want them all booogered up if you can help it.

Remember that original SW Revolvers required some hand fitting when manufactured. Some assemblers took great pride in their craft while others where simply doing their job. I carried K and L framed SW Revolvers for 11 years and I own several. My late eighties vintage M19 is decent with no work being done while my early nineties N frame is work of art with no work. My first handgun was a mid eighties L frame and our work armourer tuned the action a couple of times. It would rival any Python for smoothness. The nice thing about original SW Revolvers is a good SW mechanic can perform wonders on the triggers where more modern designs can be tuned a bit but you pretty will get what it came from the factory with. Send your M65 off for a trigger job to bring out the best of it.

Best trigger I have ever owned personally is a Model 65. I bought it used at a gunshow in Pensacola 30 years ago. Guy had a ramp and blade built up (nicely) and had S&W adjustables put on, then he had a trigger job. I literally don't know how you could have a better trigger in DA stroke than this gun. Just as good? Sure. Better? Nope.

3 inch, round butt, adjustable sights. This is how the 65 should have come from factory. No wheelgun worked for me like this one till I got a WC GP100. But its trigger is no where the quality of the 65.