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Two tone vs reverse two tone...history lesson needed.
November 14, 2020, 08:11 AM
OttoSigTwo tone vs reverse two tone...history lesson needed.
I prefer what most people would call a "reverse two tone", that is, black or dark slide and stainless colored frame.
However, I remember reading on this forum someone explained that this combination is actually "two tone" while the opposite would be "reverse two tone". Anyone know of this.
I know its very trivial and I simply want to recall the explanation for my own knowledge. But if anyone knows please chime in.
EDTA: I'm also content to find out that it doesn't make a shit and someone was talking out their ass before. It's simply bugging me at this point.
11 years to retirement! Just waiting! November 14, 2020, 08:25 AM
sigfreundThis is how SIG described the finish in a 2001 catalog.
Note that at that time the controls were still nickel-plated and therefore so was the stainless steel slide so that the colors matched. Later SIG discontinued the silver-colored controls and the slides were left in the unplated white.
Silver over black is the only way I recall catalogued “two-tone” pistols ever being described. I suspect the whole “real” two-tone thing being black over silver was invented by some self-styled Internet pundit who wanted to make his unique mark on gun lore, as we’ve seen countless other examples: “Ohhh …, he’s so knowledgeable and wise, and knows things of which we mere mortals are so woefully ignorant.”
► 6.4/93.6
“Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.”
— Plato November 14, 2020, 08:45 AM
OttoSigThank you for responding. I work with a bunch of "nerds" so I'm used to people that pull a, "Well, actually..." as I'm sure the person I read before was trying to do.
11 years to retirement! Just waiting! November 14, 2020, 08:52 AM
Modern Day SavageMy understanding is exactly as
sigfreund explains it. An unfinished slide with a blackened frame is Two-Tone, and a blackened slide with an unfinished frame is a Reverse Two Tone (RTT), at least as it's been introduced by marketing promotional material that I've seen.
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
Note that at that time the controls were still nickel-plated and therefore so was the stainless steel slide so that the colors matched. Later SIG discontinued the silver-colored controls and the slides were left in the unplated white.
Silver over black is the only way I recall catalogued “two-tone” pistols ever beingdescribed. I suspect the whole “real” two-tone thing being black over silver was invented by some self-styled Internet pundit who wanted to make his unique mark on gun lore, as we’ve seen countless other examples: “Ohhh …, he’s so knowledgeable and wise, and knows things of which we mere mortals are so woefully ignorant.”
I always enjoy your commentary and often finding myself nodding my head in agreement.
November 14, 2020, 09:07 AM
12131I recall someone on here actually mentioned that the black slide over white frame was the original two tone, and that was way before SIG. Not sure if that's true or not, but you know, it's the internet.
Obviously, for SIG pistols, they came out first with their white slide over black frame, and these guns are the original two tone, as far as SIG is concerned. Because the opposite configuration (black slide over white frame) came out much later and was referred to as RTT (reverse two tone).
Q
November 14, 2020, 09:26 AM
monoblokIn the classic SIG universe this more or less works. Not everyone else makes such a distinction, especially when there color over color combinations, with no "natural" shade (usually exposed metal or a silver finish) involved. Then people within the industry if not the manufacturers themselves will just throw up their hands and call 'em "two tone" regardless of any orientation (Springfield uses the "bi-tone" moniker instead).
Frankly I dunno why people just don't do what the car world does. There the example call is 'white over beige' (white exterior with a beige interior). Simple, straightforward, clear definition. Silver (or natural) over black pistol. More words, but
perfectly descriptive.
-MG
November 14, 2020, 09:32 AM
sigfreundquote:
Originally posted by 12131:
[T]hat was way before SIG.
I have a tendency to think about questions in the current context, so if it wasn’t a SIG product someone was referring to that’s certainly possible. I don’t recall, though, any other major manufacturer that commonly offered a slide/metal frame two tone finish: Can anyone provide examples?
► 6.4/93.6
“Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.”
— Plato November 14, 2020, 09:52 AM
Tuskquote:
Originally posted by 12131:
I recall someone on here actually mentioned that the black slide over white frame was the original two tone, and that was way before SIG. Not sure if that's true or not, but you know, it's the internet.
Obviously, for SIG pistols, they came out first with their white slide over black frame, and these guns are the original two tone, as far as SIG is concerned. Because the opposite configuration (black slide over white frame) came out much later and was referred to as RTT (reverse two tone).
Back in the seventies when the shooting games really got started and the 1911 started being all the rage folks would chrome or nickle the frame as a way to deal with rust from sweaty hands. This at a time when there weren’t really any high tech finishes and bluing wore away pretty quick. They would leave the slide blue because raising a bright slide to eye level to use the sights when the sun’s out has the potential (theoretically) to blind you with reflection.
The games, and the 1911 that dominated them, got a lot of press and this resulted in a lot of two tone guns being on the covers of all of the popular gun magazines. This was, I believe, the first widespread use of two tone finishing on a relatively large scale and was done out of necessity, not marketing. Because of this, I’ll always think of dark over light as two tone and light over dark as reverse two tone. With that said, I don’t lose any sleep over it.
November 14, 2020, 09:52 AM
elberettasI remember seeing a Beretta 92FS with a black slide/controls and a grey (stainless) frame. It was marketed as a reverse two-tone. That was at least 10 years ago. BTW, I have a two-tone P226 just like the one in that 2001 catalog (just braggin').
November 14, 2020, 10:14 AM
12131quote:
Originally posted by Tusk:
Back in the seventies when the shooting games really got started and the 1911 started being all the rage folks would chrome or nickle the frame as a way to deal with rust from sweaty hands. This at a time when there weren’t really any high tech finishes and bluing wore away pretty quick. They would leave the slide blue because raising a bright slide to eye level to use the sights when the sun’s out has the potential (theoretically) to blind you with reflection.
The games, and the 1911 that dominated them, got a lot of press and this resulted in a lot of two tone guns being on the covers of all of the popular gun magazines. This was, I believe, the first widespread use of two tone finishing on a relatively large scale and was done out of necessity, not marketing. Because of this, I’ll always think of dark over light as two tone and light over dark as reverse two tone. With that said, I don’t lose any sleep over it.
It might have been you who mentioned it previously. It was a while ago, so I couldn't remember who. Thanks for the confirmation.
Q
November 14, 2020, 10:23 AM
USAFA71Can’t figure out how to post pictures, but the Winter 2005 edition of Velocity magazine from Sig shows the 2005 list of “Gun of the month” with the June GOM the P229 with blue(Nitron) slide and silver(nickel?) frame listed as “Reverse Two Tone”(pg 4) and the P 229 with Nickel slide and controls with regular anodized frame as the P229 Two Tone(pg 10) So at least for 2005, Sig referred to silver slide over dark frame as Two-Tone, and dark slide over silver frame as Reverse Two-Tone. I really like my 229 Reverse Two-Tone. Wish Sig would start publishing the magazine again, even if only annually!
A superior pilot is best defined as one who uses his superior judgment to avoid situations requiring the use of his superior skill.
November 14, 2020, 10:24 AM
sigfreundquote:
Originally posted by Tusk.
Yes, thanks. Makes sense.
► 6.4/93.6
“Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.”
— Plato November 14, 2020, 10:40 AM
OttoSigI really was curious if this question would be received as "Who the F Cares?".
Thank you all for the responses. I did search online and it's hard to get an answer on the history. Just marketing results pop up.
Thanks again guys!
11 years to retirement! Just waiting! November 14, 2020, 11:09 AM
WindhoverThe first "two-tone" pistol I have ever seen was the Colt Combat Elite in the early 90's, with black slide and stainless frame. I remember it had the narrow stubby tang and spur hammer. The hammer was in the white.
So, in my mind, "two-tone" was always black slide and stainless frame, and "reverse two-tone" was stainless slide and blackened frame.
November 14, 2020, 12:12 PM
rock185It was as Tusk indicates.
Years later, SIG started nickeling slides, controls, or leaving the slides a natural stainless, etc. Sig called these guns two tones, and the dark slides over nickel or stainless frames "Reverse" two tone. Took me a while to adjust to that.
NRA Life
November 14, 2020, 01:29 PM
paul45quote:
Originally posted by Windhover:
The first "two-tone" pistol I have ever seen was the Colt Combat Elite in the early 90's, with black slide and stainless frame. I remember it had the narrow stubby tang and spur hammer. The hammer was in the white.
So, in my mind, "two-tone" was always black slide and stainless frame, and "reverse two-tone" was stainless slide and blackened frame.
I believe you are right and I have a 1987 CE that you describe.
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November 14, 2020, 02:34 PM
9mmepiphanyIn his books, Jeff Cooper refers to the practice of having Commanders with the finish stripped/worn off their aluminum alloy frames and crating "two-tone" 1911s. I remember reading about it back in the mid-70s...could have been in Gun & Ammo.
The term "two-tone" was used as a description of the appearance rather than a descriptive name for a "look". It wasn't meant to specify a definitive combination. The first 1911 I remember seeing, which hadn't been modified by it's owner, in this style was the Pachmayr Combat Special
The practice of going to a hard chromed slide over a blued steel frame, came from the IPSC crowd. It was believed that the black sights were easier/faster to visually pickup over the light colored slide
No, Daoism isn't a religion
November 15, 2020, 11:00 AM
Sgt 127That’s what I think of as two tone. And, what I ordered from Wilson in 1988.
November 15, 2020, 11:07 AM
MWCThe first two-tone gun I ever saw was a Colt Combat Elite 1911 back in the 80s. It had a stainless frame and a carbon-steel, blued slide. I thought it was the most beautiful gun I'd ever seen. I couldn't afford one at this time and so never had one. Since then I have always thought that dark top over a stainless frame was the way a two-tone gun should look.
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November 15, 2020, 12:54 PM
pedropcolaI too think the current definition is in error. The first guns that were two tone weren’t factory editions they were home brews. They clearly put a harder use finish where your hand goes and a blued finish up where it’s not shiny around the sight picture. That is a two tone. That is a two tone that makes sense. The current two tone seems purely aesthetic and backwards to me. Understandably the finishes are way tougher nowadays and a black finish is not less tough so it has become pure aesthetics.
As for what the first factory edition called it I think is irrelevant. The initial widespread use is correct, what the Sig factory decided upon is fairly moot. Of course so is the whole subject yet I will add one more opinion nonetheless.