Looks interesting.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...gn=Weekly+Newsletter

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Battlecloth,

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quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Edit your subject line, please, so that members know the subject of the thread.

Sorry about that.

Meh.

A step in the right direction from the previous generation of pistol chassis PDW abortions, like the Sig ACP or the CAA Roni, which are very bulky and clunky.

But still not all that useful. It's still just a pistol, only with a stubby little shoulder stock (if you add a tax stamp). Slightly greater potential stability in exchange for less concealability (which is a pistol's major positive). A solution in search of a problem.

There's a reason that stocked pistols (e.g. the FN 1903, FN Hi-Power, Mauser C96, Luger, etc.) fell out of favor after the 1930s or so.

There are a few companies that sell detachable stocks for Glocks, but there's very minimal demand.

A true pistol caliber carbine that uses the P320 FCU and magazines would be more interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Meh.

A step in the right direction from the previous generation of pistol chassis PDW abortions, like the Sig ACP or the CAA Roni, which are very bulky and clunky.

But still not all that useful. It's still just a pistol, only with a stubby little shoulder stock (if you add a tax stamp). Slightly greater potential stability in exchange for less concealability (which is a pistol's major positive). A solution in search of a problem.

There's a reason that stocked pistols (e.g. the FN 1903, FN Hi-Power, Mauser C96, Luger, etc.) fell out of favor after the 1930s or so.

There are a few companies that sell detachable stocks for Glocks, but there's very minimal demand.

A true pistol caliber carbine that uses the P320 FCU and magazines would be more interesting.

Mmm.....

On the surface, I'd agree, but the more I mull it over, I don't know about that.

The main problem with shoulder stocked pistols is the sight radius and the poor visibility thereof.

Some years ago I petitioned BATFE NFA Technology branch to approve a design of a "shaft" to be used to stabilize pistols. It is a design of my own that provides stability equal to an attacked stock but is not attached. I also have a stocked, registered BHP.

As mentioned, the primary problem is the SIGHTS. But even with that liability, the stocks provided for more accurate shooting when the shooter was extremely fatigued.

This thing I think has potential for those who have never shot a pistol before and dare I say it, won't shoot a pistol much. I can see quite some utility for certain military and others who are never going to get adequate pistol training...which is in fact many in the military who have been issued pistols.

Fitted with a RDS, this might, just might, have some utility.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Meh.

A step in the right direction from the previous generation of pistol chassis PDW abortions, like the Sig ACP or the CAA Roni, which are very bulky and clunky.

But still not all that useful. It's still just a pistol, only with a stubby little shoulder stock (if you add a tax stamp). Slightly greater potential stability in exchange for less concealability (which is a pistol's major positive). A solution in search of a problem.

There's a reason that stocked pistols (e.g. the FN 1903, FN Hi-Power, Mauser C96, Luger, etc.) fell out of favor after the 1930s or so.

There are a few companies that sell detachable stocks for Glocks, but there's very minimal demand.

A true pistol caliber carbine that uses the P320 FCU and magazines would be more interesting.

Someone will buy it. And it will be the "Hold my beer and look at this" moment.

Aside from that, it is a shoulder fired pistol. Message ends.

The very limited number of people that it "MAY" appeal to on a professional basis are already using Glock 18s, which at least have the advantage of a stock, and select fire. This might have had some utility in the mid-90s. The military isn't going to adopt it as a replacement for training because it no longer makes it a handgun. They'll just give the soldier a short rifle, or sub-gun already in inventory.

I'll be interested to see where this thing goes. {If anywhere.}

Admittedly, it would have more utility if the pistol were full auto, but IMO the key to the usefulness of the gizmo is the RDS. This new technology might breath a bit of life back into the type. Without it the stock doesn't add too much to a short-barreled pistol as what is gained in stability is mostly lost in blurriness of sight picture. But then, most pistol shooters have never spent any length of time really developing skills with a shoulder-stocked pistol, so that has to be taken into consideration. It's like anything else, it has a learning curve, too.

By the way, the Chinese went all in for shoulder-stocked pistols in the 30's and were given many Inglis pistols along with stocks {actually, my stock on my '73 BHP is an original Canadian-issue stock}. This makes some sense when the pistols were full-auto Astras or Mausers {or Chinese knockoffs}.

Canadian testing demonstrated the more-or-less uselessness of the stock and thus they never issued any significant number of stocks with the Inglis pistols that went to their troops. But the Belgians and the Finns issued stocks with BHP and Luger pistols to some degree

World War 1 saw the issue of stocked Lugers and Mausers to some German troops, but most of those pistols at least had longer sight radii which at least allowed some degree of clarity for the front sight and of course the Artillery Luger has a rear sight mounted up front on the barrel. König and Hugo mention German testing found some utility all the way out to 800 yards and French steel helmets and horse skulls were tested at that range. How many cases of ammo it took to hit a steel helmet or horse skull was not stated but maybe it was a few boxes short of what it took with a handheld pistol?! LOL.

Also, remember that Bergmann, Astra and Mauser pistols were sold on the commercial trade with stocks. A famous user of the latter was WDM Bell, the elephant hunter. On expeditions where he amassed a fortune killing way over 1,000 elephants and was most well known for his use of the .275 {7x57}, 6.5 Mannlicher-Schönauer and .416 Rigby, he also carried a shoulder-stocked Mauser 96 in 9x25 Export caliber {a darn good caliber by the way. The guy was smart in all he chose as kit}. He sang high praises about the stocked pistol and used it on much smaller game such as duiker for the pot.

So don't run down the stocked pistol too much!

Some really excellent books with material on the subject are:

Fred Datig; "The Luger Pistol"

R Blake Stevens; "The Browning High Power Automatic Pistol"

Clive M Law; "Inglis Diamond, The Canadian High Power Pistol"

Anthony Vanderlinden; "The Belgian Browning Pistols and "Holsters and Shoulder-Stocks of the World". This last is a fantastic resource.

Also, Ian what's-his-name did a very interesting review of the Czech Skorpion on forgotten Weapons. He had some interesting comments about the type.

quote:

Originally posted by 3/4Flap:
Anthony Vanderlinden; "The Belgian Browning Pistols"

Vanderlinden has an updated book titled "FN Browning Pistols: Side-Arms that Shaped World History" that's even better. https://www.amazon.com/Brownin...story/dp/0970799799/

quote:

Ian what's-his-name

Ian McCollum

Wow look awesome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtLnnncrXXU

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
There's a reason that stocked pistols (e.g. the FN 1903, FN Hi-Power, Mauser C96, Luger, etc.) fell out of favor after the 1930s or so.


A true pistol caliber carbine that uses the P320 FCU and magazines would be more interesting.

That reason is mostly the sights.

Give a guy who has never shot a pistol a pistol and this thing, both weapons fitted with RDS's. Give them 10 minutes of instruction.

Give them a target and some bullets.

Score the target.

Then we can all decide if this thing has any utility. I think it might, and I think it might because of the sights. For sure it is not going to take the place of a pistol but I can think of some reasons for it to exist, even if they are not "game changers". LOL.

I agree about a carbine. Let's not forget, the 320 is now the Army's issue pistol. We haven't even begun to see what SIG and other companies have for the commercial and military markets for it. I bet all sorts of gizmos are coming down the pike. Some good and some embarrassingly bad...

They thot this thing thru, by the way. Most shoulder-stocked pistols don't have any mechanical or other structural block preventing creeping of the face to the slide. The way this thing has that extended frame to the rear of the in-battery slide is a good feature. Not essential, but just indicates there was some good thought going into the design.

Thanks for the book recommendation. He does good work.

Take a look at the X-01 by FireControlUnit; converts the P320 (all sizes except SC) into a carbine with arm brace, not an NFA item, but with top rail and forward handguard. Am very tempted by it, but want to wait a bit for all the kinks to be worked out and for price to fall a bit ($550 for chassis alone right now with brace).