I only have one German made Sig, a P225 that was built in 1991 based on the serial number list on this forum. That wasn’t long after the unification but it is after so it got me wondering if they ever changed it, and approximately when they did.

It’s completely possible my guns parts were made before the unification and not assembled until after. I’d guess they add the serial numbers after they assemble a slide, frame and barrel though that’s just a guess.

There no good reason for my question, just curious is all.

Thinking that they swapped over in the mid nineties.

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:
I only have one German made Sig, a P225 that was built in 1991 based on the serial number list on this forum. That wasn’t long after the unification but it is after so it got me wondering if they ever changed it, and approximately when they did.

It’s completely possible my guns parts were made before the unification and not assembled until after. I’d guess they add the serial numbers after they assemble a slide, frame and barrel though that’s just a guess.

There no good reason for my question, just curious is all.

The changeover happened in sometime in 1995. German law allowed "West Germany" markings for 5 years after reunification. After 1995, every product had to be marked just "Germany".

There also wasn't a set pattern to it before 1990. Plenty of manufacturers used both markings ("Made in Germany" and "Made in West Germany"). HK is an example.

quote:

Originally posted by tigerbloodwinning:

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:.

The changeover happened in sometime in 1995. German law allowed "West Germany" markings for 5 years after reunification. After 1995, every product had to be marked just "Germany".

There also wasn't a set pattern to it before 1990. Plenty of manufacturers used both markings ("Made in Germany" and "Made in West Germany"). HK is an example.

Thank you for that.

Do you know if Sig continued to use W. Germany markings until required by law to change to Germany only?

As far as I know, almost every SIG Sauer pistol made, assembled, and proofed in Germany until 1995 (KF date code) had the "West Germany" markings.

I am not sure about the P230/P232 models since I don't have much experience with them. But seeing as how the P232 came out in 1996, I assume all P230s said "West Germany" until forced to make the change on the last of them in 1995. Otherwise, I believe the only exception is the P229, which came in two flavors at the time. One was assembled in Germany (German frame, US slide), bearing no country of origin markings (SIG DE almost never wrote "Frame Made in Germany" on guns assembled there and the slide wouldn't say anything anyway since it was from here). The other P229 was the one we're all familiar with, assembled here (German frame, US slide) with the "Frame P229 Made in Germany" and later "Frame Made in Germany" (without the "P229" specifier) marking on the dustcover. I've heard mentions of a SIG Sauer with a "Frame Made in West Germany" marking on the dustcover but I have never seen it myself.

As to why they did this? I am convinced it was just to keep manufacturing as simple as possible and keep costs down by not changing the engraving (i.e. not disturbing the assembly process) until absolutely necessary. But who knows?

Does anyone have actual reference to the so-called German law thing allowing SIG to keep marking their slides "Made In W. Germany" for another 5 years after reunification? I've seen this mention often, and it's always referred to an article by Real Gun Reviews which says the same thing. But, when you look at the cited reference, it tells you nothing about such law. So, to me, the jury is still out on the real reason why SIG kept marking their slides "Made In W. Germany" well into 1995. Maybe OTD can help us out with this.

^^^I had a reference for this once (for something totally unrelated to firearms though). I'll see if I can't dig it up. I have an old car and a few household items (all post-reunification) that say "Made in West Germany".

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
<snip>
So, to me, the jury is still out on the real reason why SIG kept marking their slides "Made In W. Germany" well into 1995.
<snip>

I think that the real reason was that most consumers considered “Made in W. Germany” to be a mark of quality. Stuff made in east Germany – not so much.

Items marked “Made in W. Germany” fetched a higher price, so manufacturers were loathe to give up “Made in W. Germany” and generally didn’t do so until forced by law.

My ex-LEO P226 has "Made in W. Germany"; its S/N is U529xxx, but I can't remember offhand if it's "KE" or "KF" marked.

quote:

Originally posted by Pipe Smoker:

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
<snip>
So, to me, the jury is still out on the real reason why SIG kept marking their slides "Made In W. Germany" well into 1995.
<snip>

I think that the real reason was that most consumers considered “Made in W. Germany” to be a mark of quality. Stuff made in east Germany – not so much.

Items marked “Made in W. Germany” fetched a higher price, so manufacturers were loathe to give up “Made in W. Germany” and generally didn’t do so until forced by law.

Something along these lines is what prompted the question. I have a friend who grew up in East Germany and he has expressed that there is still a bias among Europeans against East Germans. Funny enough shortly after he told me that a Belgian guy was talking to us and made a crack about East Germans thinking both of the Germans in the group were from the West.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
Does anyone have actual reference to the so-called German law thing allowing SIG to keep marking their slides "Made In W. Germany" for another 5 years after reunification? I've seen this mention often, and it's always referred to an article by Real Gun Reviews which says the same thing. But, when you look at the cited reference, it tells you nothing about such law. So, to me, the jury is still out on the real reason why SIG kept marking their slides "Made In W. Germany" well into 1995. Maybe OTD can help us out with this.

Q,

I think what you are looking for is contained in this article in the section titled, "Post-Reunification “Made in W. Germany” SIGs".

https://www.realgunreviews.com...y-sig-really-german/

It refers to and has a link to the "1990 Post Unification Treaty".

"As part of the 1990 Reunification Treaty negotiations, West German manufacturers expressed major concerns about diluting their reputation for “West German quality” as a result of the flailing former East German economy and manufacturing sector (famous for bringing you such manufacturing missteps as the Trabant) combining with theirs under a common market and currency. So when the 1990 Reunification Treaty was ratified, the German government allowed West German manufacturers to continue referring to their products as “West German-made” for a 5 year transition period. That made it legal for SIG Sauer to continue producing and exporting products marked “Made in W. Germany” through October 3, 1995 — which is exactly what they did. That’s why it’s possible to find SIG Sauer pistols marked “Made in W. Germany” with date codes up to KF, or 1995…"


I don't know if this is what you are looking for but maybe it helps.

I have not followed the link to the Treaty so I'm not sure what you are looking for is actually cited there.

^^^ That's the article I was referring to in my post above. The writer just wrote that, and it seems like everyone just took it and ran with it. But, is it true? As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out. Like I said, if your follow the link "1990 Reunification Treaty", it takes you to this Wiki page, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...eunification_Treaty, which tells you nothing about the German government allowing SIG, or any other W. German manufacturers, to keep marking their products "Made In W. Germany" for the next 5 years. What I'm looking for is the real law, not what someone with a website wrote.

Also, this has nothing to do with what we're talking about, but, in that article, the part he wrote about the P220 Browning BDA not having have German proof marks because it wasn't required was totally false. If he had bothered to do just a little actual research, he would not have written that.

Btw, the writer was a member here. Maybe he's still is, if he wasn't banned.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
^^^ That's the article I was referring to in my post above. The writer just wrote that, and it seems like everyone just took it and ran with it. But, is it true? As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out. Like I said, if your follow the link "1990 Reunification Treaty", it takes you to this Wiki page, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...eunification_Treaty, which tells you nothing about the German government allowing SIG, or any other W. German manufacturers, to keep marking their products "Made In W. Germany" for the next 5 years. What I'm looking for is the real law, not what someone with a website wrote.

Also, this has nothing to do with what we're talking about, but, in that article, the part he wrote about the P220 Browning BDA not having have German proof marks because it wasn't required was totally false. If he had bothered to do just a little actual research, he would not have written that.

Btw, the writer was a member here. Maybe he's still is, if he wasn't banned.

Q,

I pulled that article from a bunch I have archived in my "favorites" and did not notice your reference to it's source.

The only other reference I've found regarding Reunification and the phasing out of "made in West Germany is this:
______________________________________________
The use of the phrase “Made in West Germany” tapered off after the reunification of Germany in October 1990. After reunification, the whole of Germany was once again referred to simply as “Germany,” and any products made in the country began to be labeled as “Made in Germany” instead.
West Germany and East Germany’s distinct currencies also stopped being used, being replaced instead by the newly-established Euro. Furthermore, while the four occupying forces’ control of Germany officially ended in 1990, it wasn’t until 1994 that the whole country was governed by one unified German government.
This further cemented the end of the former East and West Germany, and further signaled the end of the use of the phrase “Made in West Germany. “.

_______________________________________________


This does not indicate a specific law or ruling nor does it explain why Sig peened over the "W" starting in '95 but maybe it's just that simple.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
Does anyone have actual reference to the so-called German law thing allowing SIG to keep marking their slides "Made In W. Germany" for another 5 years after reunification? I've seen this mention often, and it's always referred to an article by Real Gun Reviews which says the same thing. But, when you look at the cited reference, it tells you nothing about such law. So, to me, the jury is still out on the real reason why SIG kept marking their slides "Made In W. Germany" well into 1995. Maybe OTD can help us out with this.

German law does not know any provisions from which the conditions under which the designation of origin "Made in Germany" would be permissible are apparent. According to Section 3 and Section 5 of the German Unfair Competition Act (Gesetz gegen den unlauteren Wettbewerb, UWG), a person who makes misleading statements about the origin of his goods can be sued to have the statements ceased. However, this does not answer the question of when an indication of origin is misleading. Why the marking can be observed until 1995 is unknown.

The information and data from the cited article are stingently presented but leave the impression that someone has tried to construct a context to find an answer to a question that is much more complex than that described by the author. They are at best inflated simple answers for an uncritical audience.

^^^ Thanks, OTD.

Quote recently found:
Post-Reunification “Made in W. Germany” SIGs

Quick history refresher: The country of West Germany (officially the Federal Republic of Germany) was founded following World War II on May 23, 1949. The SIG Sauer partnership produced its first firearm, the P220, in West Germany in 1975, and continued to produce and export firearms designated as “West German” products for 25 more years, until East and West Germany were reunified on October 3, 1990 and commonly referred to as “Germany” once again… though technically the combined country’s official name remains to this day the “Federal Republic of Germany,” and the “German Democratic Republic” (aka East Germany) was essentially absorbed by West Germany.

So you might imagine that because “West” Germany no longer existed after October 1990, that any SIG Sauer pistols proofed after that date could not be called West German SIGs… but you’d be wrong.

SIG pistols stamped “Made in W. Germany” with date codes from 91, 92, 93, 94, and even 95 exist. But how?

The apocryphal story goes that SIG Sauer had a 5 year stockpile of slides already manufactured and stamped “Made in W. Germany,” and that it simply took them five years to use them all up before they had to make more, at which point they started stamping “Made in Germany” on them. That urban legend is untrue, and would indicate extremely poor inventory management on the part of SIG Sauer… especially when you consider that it would mean they’d have to stockpile 5 years of slides for their entire lineup of pistol models.

The reality is much more believable. As part of the 1990 Reunification Treaty negotiations, West German manufacturers expressed major concerns about diluting their reputation for “West German quality” as a result of the flailing former East German economy and manufacturing sector (famous for bringing you such manufacturing missteps as the Trabant) combining with theirs under a common market and currency. So when the 1990 Reunification Treaty was ratified, the German government allowed West German manufacturers to continue referring to their products as “West German-made” for a 5 year transition period. That made it legal for SIG Sauer to continue producing and exporting products marked “Made in W. Germany” through October 3, 1995 — which is exactly what they did. That’s why it’s possible to find SIG Sauer pistols marked “Made in W. Germany” with date codes up to KF, or 1995… even though some of those guns were, technically, manufactured, assembled, and proofed in post-reunification “Germany.” Still, if it’s stamped “Made in W. Germany” and has German proof marks and date codes, it’s appropriate to refer to such a pistol as a West German SIG.

Perhaps not coincidentally, 1990 was the same year that Sigarms Inc. (the American branch of SIG that had been set up in 1985 to import West German SIGs to the US market) moved to Exeter, New Hampshire to set up a new manufacturing facility. By 1992, the first fully American-made SIG pistol, the SIG P229 in .40 S&W, was being produced in Exeter.

Source https://www.realgunreviews.com...y-sig-really-german/

Reminder

the official name of Germany is Bundesrepublik Deutschland.
The final authority on import markings is the importing country.

Udo, the article you linked is the one that has been mentioned several times above.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
Udo, the article you linked is the one that has been mentioned several times above.

I didn’t mean to be duplicative. The author above has made some errors and may have made others.

This following long article contains some little known back information.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...Reunification_Treaty

Before reunification, "Made in Germany" meant it was made in the GDR. They did not consider themselves East Germany, but rather Germany. I vividly recall foolishly asking an E. German cop once if I was in East Berlin (this was in the subway, where you could change trains on E. German territory, but without going through customs and officially entering the country). The cop said, "East Berlin? Never heard of of it."

BTW, Germany has no control over this, but VIN numbers in the US for Germany cars begin with W, which stood for W. Germany, as the GDR did not export the Trabant or Wartburg to the US.