by RogueJSK on previous page

quote:

You also have to keep in mind that this was pre-internet and information moved much slower and wasn't that widely accessible. Much of the thinking about pistols and pistol calibers was guided by just a few gun writers ...

You never heard Elmer Keith, Charles "I plugged that jazbo spang thru the brisket [sic]" Askins or, especially, Jeff Cooper extol their virtues. (In fairness to Cooper, in the 1970s there was a colonel of truth to it.)

Something else Askins once wrote is that ex-military 1911s were lucky to "keep all their shots on the bottom of a #3 washtub at 50 yards." (I didn't know washtubs were numbered for size; I'm guessing that would be 2-3 feet.) Statements like this probably didn't help.

Yep.

And to be polite, all those old school "expert gun writers" were... seasoned. Experienced. Well-traveled. Old.

Elmer Keith was born in 1899.
Charles Askins was born in 1907.
Jeff Cooper was the respective youngin', born in 1920, and held a slightly more progressive view on semiautos - though mainly in .45 ACP.

So by the time the "wonder nine" was becoming a viable option these guys were already in their 50s/60s/70s/80s. They had grown up with revolvers and 1911s and used them exclusively for the past many decades.

And like most older curmudgeons ( ), ingrained attitudes about "newfangled technology", "kids these days", and "don't fix it if it ain't broke" were the norm, leading to derisive terms like "jam-o-matic", "poodle shooter", "crunchenticker", et al alongside a poor view of the 9mm with its lack of archaic "stopping power".

And if that was your sole source of gun info, you'd share their view too.

The only "wonder-nine" grudgingly approved of by Jeff Cooper was the CZ-75 because it could be put in Condition One (he also coined the term). But at the time Czechoslovakia was still communist and the Cold War was still very much going on, so you pretty much couldn't buy one here. The Bren Ten, which he had a hand in developing, was CZ-75-based.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Yep.

And to be polite, all those old school "expert gun writers" were... seasoned. Experienced. Well-traveled. Old.

Elmer Keith was born in 1899.
Charles Askins was born in 1907.
Jeff Cooper was the respective youngin', born in 1920, and held a slightly more progressive view on semiautos - though mainly in .45 ACP.

So by the time the "wonder nine" was becoming a viable option these guys were already in their 50s/60s/70s/80s. They had grown up with revolvers and 1911s and used them exclusively for the past many decades.

And like most older curmudgeons ( ), ingrained attitudes about "newfangled technology", "kids these days", and "don't fix it if it ain't broke" were the norm, leading to derisive terms like "jam-o-matic", "poodle shooter", "crunchenticker", et al alongside a poor view of the 9mm with its lack of archaic "stopping power".

And if that was your sole source of gun info, you'd share their view too.

The only major gun writer, at the time, who advocated for the 9mm...as well as DA/SA triggers and magazine safeties...was Mas Ayoob. He took a lot of heat over it, but he was able to gather enough real world data to have some creditability

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:


And like most older curmudgeons ( ), ingrained attitudes about "newfangled technology", "kids these days", and "don't fix it if it ain't broke" were the norm, leading to derisive terms like "jam-o-matic", "poodle shooter", "crunchenticker", et al alongside a poor view of the 9mm with its lack of archaic "stopping power".

It has many factors and not a simple answer. Some semiautomatic designs weren’t terribly reliable regardless of caliber. Bullet technologies and powders weren’t the best. And lastly to Rogue’s point, you had the big bore “because they don’t make a .46” influencers of the time and the promotion of their culture. The fascinating unbiased look at it is through the lens of the Southwest Pistol League to which Cooper himself was a founding member. The “First Five” members all had significant experience in one form or another. Most of the success in that was X+Y equals Z and in that caliber played a point.

As the Southwest Pistol League evolved, and the focus went from caliber to hard shooting skills, the originals didn’t(evolve). The League started to evolve with younger shooters who abandoned the weaver stance, and focused more on shooting skill at higher levels. Drills like El Pres had seconds chipped away from them as skills became more dominate.

The guns got better, the tech got better, and with a changing of the guard, it was the right time for the birth of the “Wonder Nine”.

Well, Sigsters, you had your chance, qv Sig SP 44/16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTi0ewSrQiY

I remember Jeff Cooper writing that if you must have a 9mm, it should be the smallest and handiest available... HK P7

While I think the DA/SA is the safest action, it comes with the "crunch/tick" which calls for training and practice, and who wants to do much of that?
M. Ayoob further complicated things by saying you should carry even those with your Walther/Smith/Beretta dingus down and learn kind of a stabbing motion to disengage the safety on the draw. The Gendarmes figured that out and ordered decocking only Berettas.

Bruce and Mel were late to the party, Pal!
I bought a Beretta Model 92s in the early 1980s. I'm not sure if I saw them advertised in Shotgun News or one of the Gun Rags. I had a local dealer in the closest small town order me one.

quote:

Elmer Keith was born in 1899.

He was a savvy nimrod.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Yep.

And to be polite, all those old school "expert gun writers" were... seasoned. Experienced. Well-traveled. Old.

Elmer Keith was born in 1899.
Charles Askins was born in 1907.
Jeff Cooper was the respective youngin', born in 1920, and held a slightly more progressive view on semiautos - though mainly in .45 ACP.

So by the time the "wonder nine" was becoming a viable option these guys were already in their 50s/60s/70s/80s. They had grown up with revolvers and 1911s and used them exclusively for the past many decades.

And like most older curmudgeons ( ), ingrained attitudes about "newfangled technology", "kids these days", and "don't fix it if it ain't broke" were the norm, leading to derisive terms like "jam-o-matic", "poodle shooter", "crunchenticker", et al alongside a poor view of the 9mm with its lack of archaic "stopping power".

And if that was your sole source of gun info, you'd share their view too.

And as a kid who came up in the 80's, I was influenced by these guys, and bought my first handgun, a Colt 1911 Government Model .45, (natch), in 1988. If I had it to do over it probably would have been a Browning Hi-Power, (or two), followed by a Sig Sauer P228, P226, P225, a CZ 75, and a Glock 19 much sooner, (it took me 11 years to get on that platform).

I find it interesting that a lot of the present day "curmudgeons" are like "all you need is a Glock 19!'

^^^^^^^^
How could you not buy a 1911 in 1988? Magnum PI, anyone?

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
^^^^^^^^
How could you not buy a 1911 in 1988? Magnum PI, anyone?

Colt's union was on strike from 1986 to 1990, so....