This looks like fun.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:


Not trying to dump on the OP, but this seems largely pointless, IMO.

You're not trying. You're actually doing it.

Here's the thing. I agree to each their own. But, this was posted as a "challenge". Each of the micro-guns are going to shoot similar at 10 yards. They all have about the same mechanical lock up and will perform similarly. That is the point that many are trying to make. That is the reason I asked the questions I did early on. All the little guns are about the same. The rub is this isn't as much about little guns as it is an exercise in trigger control and patience. From there it becomes a popularity contest....

At 25 yards, there are definite winners and losers. The G43 is a huge turd at 25 yards. The G42 is a huge winner. XDS is another huge winner. And so on.

The rules of the "challenge" were clearly spelled out at the outset. They weren't nebulous, although you might not agree with what a "challenge" means. Again, OP didn't ask for advice. He simply wanted to share a fun results. I get it that some of the guys want simulate whatever they want to simulate. But, this thread is not about that.

Always fun to see what the smaller guns will do.
We've gotten together with the guys in my group to dial in all the pistols to shoot POA/POI so there are no excuses during a run & gun match!


We shoot "carry" or "off duty" type casual matches which require holster draw and some movement, and it's surprising to see what some of these small pistols can do once the sights are dialed in.

My brain is still air locked on him saying a 225 and a 43 are the same size.

quote:

Originally posted by 1KPerDay:
lol that's awesome. The seecamps I've shot didn't have sights. Did yours? If not that's epic!

Stock Seecamp...no sights. Poppers were bright yellow and I made sure I hit them up high with the puny .25. I practiced with the little gun quite a bit before I sandbagged my buddies.

One guy (not really a buddy) went nuts. He had a Ed Brown 1911 and "practiced" to the tune of 1,000-1,500 rounds a week. Problem was his head...not the gun or number of rounds. Put him under pressure and he would fold like a cheap suit. I also routinely smoked him with my Ruger SP101 3" .357 that I shot continuously for about a year. Before and after my "piss everybody off" phase I shot 1911's. It was all just to prove a point.

Slow fire from behind the table at 45Cal's. Kahr CW9, I think that's 10 yards. 4 shots in one ragged hole and a single flyer at the bottom of the dot. 45Cal's hand loads.

Good shooting 1K, looks like a fun challenge.

Thanks for sharing.

The post above is a pic that was taken a long time ago. Gonna have to brake out the mouse guns and see what I can get done.

Nice job 1K. Seecamp 32 going to the range tomorrow. Gonna' practice up and take on Nipper.

quote:

Originally posted by esdunbar:
My brain is still air locked on him saying a 225 and a 43 are the same size.

I own both and had to wonder if he's ever held a G43. A P225 Classic is almost identical in size to a P228, and both are significantly larger than a G19.

quote:

Originally posted by 1KPerDay:
lol that's awesome. The seecamps I've shot didn't have sights. Did yours? If not that's epic!

my LWS 32 does not have sights,
I don't think any of them do


and is quite accurate once you get the hang of it

Sights are highly over rated.

I'm joking of course (sorta). Jim Cirillo of NYPD Stakeout Squad fame was not opposed to standard use of sights. However, he also developed techniques using the weapon silhouette as well as the sub-conscious and subliminal mind. When learned and executed properly, he determined it was faster and just as accurate in fast high stress situations as conventional use of sights. See his book "Guns, Bullets and Gunfights" (1996) for some mention of that and other unusual techniques.

I know what you're thinking...B.S. right? NO. I took a two day course from him in 1996. While he mentioned the silhouette technique he spent the two days using a slightly different technique taking advantage of the subconscious mind and using peripheral vision. The gun was held around nose level rather than eye level. Once you committed to the technique, nearly everybody was shooting faster and more accurately at 10 yards and under.

One exception was a FLETC instructor out of Georgia. He simply could not change his traditional sights oriented methodology that he taught at the Federal training facility. I can't explain the technique in a forum. Other than Cirillo, I don't know of anyone else that has taught it. All I know is it worked.

With the Seecamp, I used the silhouette method. Also had an impromptu test of it with a Sig P226. Sent the gun to Sig in 2013 and had the slide bead blasted. They removed the original sights and left them off, per my instructions. I wanted to install Heinie black/black sights myself instead. Took it to the range for our weekly defensive shooting session and did some 7 and 10 yard drills from the holster.

Since they had the slide apart, I was more interested in functioning than accuracy. It had no sights and looked like a giant Seecamp. The groups averaged about eight inches. While large, it was a consistent pattern at both distances. Had I paid more attention and wanted to see prettier group sizes, I probably could have shrunk them.

If I'm doing speed drills at five yards and under, I don't even consciously use the sights. Like in the the Cirillo course. I get both the speed and the hits.

Another serendipity moment. Was taking an advanced defensive course a few years ago. Instructors were working on close-in shooting and the high pectoral (or high retention) position. Gun is slightly extended and about even with your nipple with a bent elbow. NO sight picture. we were supposed to begin extending the arms as the distance increase...I didn't. Got yelled at. However, I found I was getting my usual fist-sized groups from five feet back to the five yard limit without extending. Surprised even me.

The point here is not to regale anybody with some of these weird exploits. You have to approach things with an open mind and actually try them. Some work...some don't. It's up to you to find out.

95 1X

I found some B3 targets at Bass Pro Shop this morning. Dug out this old Colt Government Model .380 and some old Winchester ball ammo. It has higher profile fixed sights added and the ejection problem corrected by Cylinder & slide, way back when.

I actually qualified with this pistol back in the 80's, when that was part of getting a CCL in Florida. This was my carry pistol for a while.
___________________________________


And, retrieved this old DA/SA Detonics Pocket Nine from the safe, fed it 147 GR 9 MM HP's today.
Its a retarded blowback 9 and very violent to shoot. *Trough* sights. Recoil spring needs replacing but there aren't any available. The cases fly into the next county.

It was innovative in its day, but you can guess why I moved on to other tools for CCW's.


44/100 , two completely off the paper.

Way cool!

I don't have anything at 10 yards, but I do at 20 yards with my PPS M2. I don't carry that anymore though. Very accurate little gun.

https://imgur.com/a/01FMf2f

IKperday,
Thanks for taking the time to do this comparison, and to photograph and post. Interesting. You don't have a Glock 43 you could do the same thing with, do you?
Scott

quote:

Originally posted by ScotP7:
IKperday,
Thanks for taking the time to do this comparison, and to photograph and post. Interesting. You don't have a Glock 43 you could do the same thing with, do you?
Scott

Sure, but with the caveat that this G43 has a pretty horrible, 9 lb. 2 oz. trigger:

1KPerDay
93-2X
G43
Magtech 115 FMJ
2-3-19

I’ll play along 1K, but I don’t have any pocket pistols.

The smallest I have is my HK P7, which is about the same size as the P230/232. Don’t have any 10 yard pics with the P230 though. I’d imagine it’d be pretty much the same, being fixed barrel like the HK P7.

Looks like it works!

My range holds a plate shoot that will cycle parameters. At least once a quarter we will hold a concealed carry shoot.

Any gun with a barrel under 3.5 inches, 5 plates, 15 yards. We start from the low-ready and it's 2 shooters head to head.

This event always shows who actually practices with their carry gun. We're used to get complaints that it was too far, or that it's impossible with a gun that lacks traditional sights.

After a few times doing it, the grumbles were quieted by the number of shooters that were hitting plates, and over all, I think we all improved a bit with time.

Bullseye shooting at 10 yards with a short barrel won't do much for practice under pressure, but I'd wager that it'll show lack of trigger control rather quick. I might just add this to my practice routine to see where I stand.

10 rounds speed (15yds), 10 rounds bullseye (10yds), 10 rounds speed (15yds), 20 rounds from holster (7yds).