I was general in Para’s camp of finding pistol red dots to largely be unnecessary tumors on pistols. I’ve played with them here and there but was never fully in the camp that I was missing anything by not having one on my duty pistol or carry pistols. I attended some pistol training for my part time police job last week. It wasn’t a red dot transition class “per se” but was geared towards bringing some new officers up to snuff with pistols equipped with red dots. Like most, I don’t like to admit that I was wrong, but I was wrong.

Up close I don’t feel I was appreciably faster, but at 15 yards and beyond it was like cheating. I really don’t feel like I was slowed down at all up close in finding the dot, and I definitely feel like after some slight tweaks finding the dot fast in general was a non issue. However, at greater distances it was so much faster getting on target and recovering from one shot to the next. Also, I was impressed with the level of performance that new and novice shooters had with their dot equipped pistols. I really believe that one is leaving something on the table in the duty and self defense realm by not using a red dot equipped pistol.

The biggest problem for me wasn’t having to admit that I was a little wrong. Instead, the biggest issue for me was realizing that I’m now going to have to spend thousands of dollars on new pistol red dots and modifications to existing pistols. Any recommendations for the smaller red dots for smaller pistols? I’m debating buying a new Glock 43X COA for concealed carry or adding a red dot to my 365 first. I already have a non COA milled 43X, but think it might be cheaper to just buy a blue line 43X COA as opposed to having my gun modified. Also, I think I am most interested in the Romeo X SIG LOC compact for my 365, but unfortunately the optics milling that came on my gun back in 2024 doesn't appear compatible. I’m debating what I should do, as I want the small size and fully enclosed nature of the aforementioned optic, but I really don’t like the idea of spending $300 on a new slide. Maybe Luddite’s are Luddite’s because they hate to spend money upgrading their older stuff to newer stuff and having extra unused parts.

I like holosun's. My xmacro was compatible with a 507 so thats what I got.. I like green over red!

Sig's mishandling of their red dots is pathetic.

Like seven footprints. either incompetant or intentionally changing the footprints to sell more red dots!!!

I'm 52 and I still can't get into them on a defensive pistol. I tried, invested about 1500 rounds and 6 months with one on a carry gun and its just not "natural" to me. To each his own.

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
I attended some pistol training for my part time police job last week. It wasn’t a red dot transition class “per se” but was geared towards bringing some new officers up to snuff with pistols equipped with red dots. Like most, I don’t like to admit that I was wrong, but I was wrong.

Sounds about right. Most red dot skeptics who are anti-optic in theory change their tune once they get a little practical training on them.

Actual training/instruction, not just putting a magazine through their buddy's optic-equipped gun and then declaring that they still think they're unnecessary. Or deciding that they don't like them because they're not what they're used to. Or giving up because they are frustrated while hunting around for the dot and don't understand what they're doing wrong or how to train through that.

I myself was slightly skeptical when they first gained prominence, but became a convert after researching their track record and attending a handgun optic class several years ago. I've since trained a number of other newbies and skeptics to become proficient.

quote:

The biggest problem for me wasn’t having to admit that I was a little wrong. Instead, the biggest issue for me was realizing that I’m now going to have to spend thousands of dollars on new pistol red dots and modifications to existing pistols.

Don't forget the new optic-compatible holsters...

The good news is that you don't have to convert every gun at once. Start with your primary duty gun and/or carry gun. Work on them one at a time from there.

I still don't have optics on most of my handguns, because I'm only converting 1 or 2 a year, and don't plan on converting some of my lesser-used ones at all.

quote:

Also, I think I am most interested in the Romeo X SIG LOC compact for my 365, but unfortunately the optics milling that came on my gun back in 2024 doesn't appear compatible. I’m debating what I should do, as I want the small size and fully enclosed nature of the aforementioned optic, but I really don’t like the idea of spending $300 on a new slide.

If it's the standard non-Sig-Loc P365 optic cut, it has a modified RMSc optic, for which there are a number of optics. Also works with Holosun K cut pattern optics, like the 407k/507k/EPS/EPS Carry/SCS Carry/etc.

Personally, I'd take a hard look at the Holosun EPS Carry or SCS Carry. Both are sized for microcompacts like the P365. Both are enclosed. Both will directly mount to the standard P365 factory optic cut. The EPS Carry uses batteries while the SCS Carry has solar charging (which also charges with artificial light).

But if you want to stick to strictly Sig optics, then the Romeo X Enclosed Compact is their enclosed optic that will work with your non-Sig-Loc P365.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

Sounds about right. Most red dot skeptics who are anti-optic in theory change their tune once they get a little practical training on them.

Actual training/instruction, not just putting a magazine through their buddy's optic-equipped gun and then declaring that they still think they're unnecessary, or deciding that they don't like them because they're not what they're used to or because they are frustrated by having to hunt for the dot and don't understand what they're doing wrong or how to train through that.

Yep. The biggest thing I had to get over was to stop being front sight focused instead of target focused. Once that happened I was able to shoot further and more accurately. What's even funnier is that learning how to properly use a red dot on a pistol made me even better when I'm just using iron sights.

quote:

quote:

Also, I think I am most interested in the Romeo X SIG LOC compact for my 365, but unfortunately the optics milling that came on my gun back in 2024 doesn't appear compatible. I’m debating what I should do, as I want the small size and fully enclosed nature of the aforementioned optic, but I really don’t like the idea of spending $300 on a new slide.

If it's the standard (non-Sig-Loc) P365 optic cut, it's the Holosun "K Cut", a modified RMSc footprint. Holosun offers several K cut optics like the 407k/507k/EPS Carry/etc. Personally, I'd take a hard look at the Holosun SCS Carry. It's Enclosed, and has solar charging which also charges with artificial light.

The other good one for that cut is the Vortex Defender CCW Enclosed. It'll fit the older P365, it has a rear sight molded into it, has both dot and circle dot options built in instead of charging extra, and like the Sig it has a side mounted battery that is more solid than the tiny Holosun screw.

quote:

Originally posted by DanH:
The other good one for that cut is the Vortex Defender CCW Enclosed. It'll fit the older P365, it has a rear sight molded into it

Yeah, both the EPS Carry and SCS Carry also have a rear sight notch built in to them, for those who have the early P365 optic cut with the rear sight integrated into the cover plate.

As usual, I agree with Rogue.

As to optics, don't discount the Osight SE. I know it's cheap, but I've been beating the piss out of one on my 43x for the past few months, and it's held up very well. It's fully enclosed, has a low deck height for co-witness with standard sights, and has well-designed buttons and adjustment screws. It's a true RMSC footprint, which afaik should match your factory P365 optic cut.

Dot optics on pistols seem to me to be about where dot optics on rifles were viewed about twenty years ago. Sure, there are downsides, but the upsides cannot be argued against once you finally "get it" and have a chance to really work with your setup. It's just night and day, especially shooting at speed on the clock. I only switched maybe a year ago, so I fully understand where you're at.

Also, I'll go ahead and also chime in on the Osight SE. I have one on both my S&W M&P's, one in 5.7 and the other in .22 and while those aren't punishing calibers to shoot, I only shoot those guns suppressed with a high backpressure can. I made the change on the .22 after a really filthy range session and having to clean carbon and fouling out of the inside of the lens. After that, I went closed emitter and have been much happier. Also, not just to my eyes, but the guys I've showed them to in my shooting group, the actual reticles are cleaner and more defined than any Holosun I've owned. I thought my astigmatism was just getting horrible, but it may honestly just be that Holosun is putting out stuff with inferior emitters to what Osight is using.

As a side note, these days, I'll recommend just skipping to closed emitter optics for carry right from jump. After carrying a Glock equipped with an RMR, then an SRO, and now a COA, I'm never going back to an open emitter for carry if I can help it. I quit buying canned air and bought an electric keyboard duster and probably gave myself hearing damage trying to keep those stupid things reasonably lint and dust-free.

The battery in mine died during our last bowling pin match.

At least the pins were not shooting back that day.

Optics are a big help to older eyes. Even in my 40's I could see anything at any distance. Open rifle sights at 800 yds, no problem. But then the ability to focus both near and far faded.

My favorite ccw is my P320 with the Sig optic.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
The battery in mine died during our last bowling pin match.

At least the pins were not shooting back that day.

Our club president caught me shooting pins with a shotgun that one time back when we did it for the postal match. He kinda chastised me...didn't outright forbid it, but told me a story about a guy at the club years ago who took a .45 to the chest that came back off a bowling pin. So maybe they do occasionally shoot back!

But yeah, batteries definitely do die. I change them in my duty gun every 6 months, and still check it every morning before it goes in the holster. Also good to train to transition immediately to irons if the dot ever fails to appear on the draw.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
The battery in mine died during our last bowling pin match.

At least the pins were not shooting back that day.

Most quality optics have battery lives in the 20k-40k+ hour range these days. That's 2-4+ years between battery changes. (And that's straight runtime, not counting extended lifespan from features like auto-off/shake-awake, or automatic brightness adjustments, or just turning it off between uses.)

Frankly, if you can't be bothered to take a few seconds to change the battery on your lifesaving device every 6-24 months on a schedule (like on January 1st and July 4th, or on Christmas annually, or on your birthday every even year, or whatever), that's an owner failure, not a hardware failure.

You could also just get a solar sight like the Holosun SCS series that only needs some occasional natural or artificial light exposure to stay operational. Even if it lives in a dark safe 99% of the time, they have a 20k hour battery life between charges, so only need charging every couple years. I'd hope that your defensive firearms aren't going more than 2 or 3 years between range sessions or at least some dry fire manipulations...

And if you somehow still end up with a dead battery, there are (usually) backup irons. Or techniques to use the optic window or edge of the slide to still get hits on man sized targets at normal defensive ranges.

So in 2026, the "But the battery might die!" argument against optics doesn't hold water. Handgun or long gun.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
Also good to train to transition immediately to irons if the dot ever fails to appear on the draw.

I immediately transitioned to the co-witnessed front sight and the rear white line below the dead red dot, but missed faster than the guy I was matched up with.

Then I remembered it was on a QD mount, shot the next matchups with the irons and did fine, but it was too late to salvage the match.

_________________________________________________

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:


Frankly, if you can't be bothered to take a few seconds to change the battery that's an owner failure, not a hardware failure.

It absolutely was an owner failure, like unto P320 ND's.

I'd hope that your defensive firearms aren't going more than 2 or 3 years between range sessions or at least some dry fire manipulations...

Rest easy, RogueJSK, those get exercised frequently. And I changed the LaserGrip or Streamlight laser/whitelight batteries in them all within the last 3 months.

This is fun gun, a S&W Victory with a Burris FastFire 3 on an ADM QD mount. The battery was good from 7/2020. Probably still has Wuflu cooties.

And if you somehow still end up with a dead battery, there are (usually) backup irons. See above.

So in 2026, the "But the battery might die!" argument against optics doesn't hold water. Handgun or long gun.

I was reporting an experience, not arguing against optics, but see your point, in 2026, shit never happens. Frankly.

Further musings, since I'm off work and bored today:

Like we saw with long gun optics over the past couple decades, handgun optics - while newer - continue to improve at an exponential rate in recent several years, with much of the innovation being to address the previous drawbacks, such as:

1) Cost. We've seen it go from $800 for a quality optic to $400 and now to apparently sub-$200 with stuff like the Osight SE. It's approaching the point where a decent handgun optic costs not that much more than a set of quality night sights (many of which themselves are running $120+ these days).

2) Height/bulk. The latest generations of optics continue to get smaller and smaller, to the point now where optics can comfortably fit on microcompact concealed carry guns like the Hellcat and P365. And the days of optics with ultra thick bases necessitating 5x height skyscraper-like backup irons are quickly on their way out too (thank god), with the latest generation of optics cowitnessing with factory height irons or just slightly elevated irons.

3) Optic footprint commonality. This one still needs some work, though many gun manufacturers on their latest models seem to have started to somewhat standardize on the RMR footprint, or the RMSc/K cut footprint for more compact handguns. Though DPP is still around a bit (often seen as part of a dual RMR/DPP cut), and there are still companies debuting new proprietary footprints and mounting solutions to try to hit on the next big thing, like the Aimpoint COA or ACRO, Sig-Loc, etc. We're still waiting on the definitive VHS>Betamax, Blu-Ray>HD DVD, or MLOK>Keymod kind of phase where the industry finally caves and mostly standardizes, but I suspect we'll get there eventually. We're at least moving away from unnecessarily bulky interchangeable mounting plate systems and towards direct attach mounts.

4) Reliability/durability. Like it was with long gun optics in their infancy, this is obviously a major concern with handgun optics. But like we saw with long gun optics a couple decades back, I think the proof is now available out there for even the most skeptical person that at least some of the handgun optic options are reliable enough for seriously hardcore military/LE duty use, let alone more tame concealed carry/home defense use. Even some of the less expensive options are holding up to torture tests that go well beyond any of the more uncommon real-world potential use/abuse scenarios.

5) Batteries. In addition to the battery life now approaching that of long gun optics and being measured in years, we're moving away from the early setups that annoyingly required unmounting/remounting and then rezeroing the optic just to change the battery. Side loading batteries are now commonplace, with solar powered sights becoming more common, and even some options with magnetic/wireless rechargeable internal batteries (like on your iPhone/Galaxy smartphone).

I'm still getting used to a red dot on my Shadow 2 Carry. I agree with P220 Smudge- I would totally go with an enclosed red dot sight. The Romeo-X enclosed compact I use gets so covered in dust and lint, it seems like an open red dot's emitter would get covered pretty fast.

I also really like the shake awake feature that many of them are starting to incorporate. I grab it, it turns on. I put it in the safe, it turns off after 2 min.

I was worried about the bulk of a RDS while carrying, but honestly I don't even notice a difference. My previous carry was a P226R with irons.

Lt Cheg, apologies for the thread digression.


Don't be like me. remember to change your batteries.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
I was reporting an experience, not arguing against optics

Then I apologize for misinterpreting your post.

Plus, much of my discussion was just my own soapboxing/ranting directed at battery powered optic naysayers in general, not specifically directed at you or anything you had said...

I have a question for those that run a red dot. Do you adjust the brightness depending on the lighting conditions?
Do you turn it down at night and crank it back up during the day or does your dot have the perfect setting that can handle every situation? Also, have you ever turned up the brightness to a higher setting during bright days and forgot to turn it back down or just the opposite resulting in a dot that's too dim to see during the day? The reason I ask is this can be a common issue when red dot pistols are issued to the masses. It also happens to experienced shooters. The runtimes plummet when left on higher than recommended settings.

There are a couple ways to address this:

Find a medium-high setting that's good for lighter conditions and somewhat too bright but still useable for darker conditions. This is my preference for most dots with manual brightness adjustments, including on long guns. Keep in mind that even in the dark you need to be able to identify your targets, so the difference between an ideal daytime setting and an ideal nightime-with-flashlight-illumination setting is narrower. (You do have a flashlight... right?)

Or

Go with an optic that auto-adjusts the brightness, which is my overall preference currently on handgun optics. I know for a fact that Holosun has really dialed this in with their latest handgun optics. Early auto-adjusting optic light sensors were hit or miss, but I've trained extensively with some of the newer Holosun SCS models with auto-brightness and have yet to encounter a scenario where the dot wasn't right where it should be, regardless of lighting conditions, flashlight use, etc. Even with a lit target and a shooter in darkness, or vice versa.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

3) Early auto-adjusting optic light sensors were hit or miss, but I've trained extensive with some of the newer Holosun SCS models with auto-brightness and have yet to encounter a scenario where the dot wasn't right where it should be, regardless of lighting conditions, flashlight use, etc.

This seems like a good solution in general. The technology should continue to improve.