quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
You didn't hit a nerve with me. I call them as I see them. Doubling down just doesn't help you out at blaming an inanimate object.

Maybe you should get some training before you attempt to speak with authority outside of your lane. Just a sincere suggestion.

quote:

Originally posted by colt_saa:


For the private person, putting a flashlight on your gun violates one of the basic rules of Firearms Safety. . . "Never point your firearm at something you are not willing to destroy"

Using a firearm as a flashlight FORCES you to constantly point your firearm at things and people that you are NOT willing to destroy.

quote:

Originally posted by mbacker_99:

quote:

Originally posted by colt_saa:


For the private person, putting a flashlight on your gun violates one of the basic rules of Firearms Safety. . . "Never point your firearm at something you are not willing to destroy"

Using a firearm as a flashlight FORCES you to constantly point your firearm at things and people that you are NOT willing to destroy.

There is a big difference between using a wml and using your firearm as a flashlight.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
Did the standard SIG grip tang of the SIG Classic P series not allow you the same speed index draw?

Not Hays but I'll chime in.

It depends. SIG has three beaver tail contours on the P-Series guns. Some are extremely helpful over the no tail guns, others are a hinderance. The contour of the beaver tail on the Legion does allow me to get the gun higher, and is a pretty rock solid reference point. I get a more consistent grip at speed with this set up than I do a gun without it. But, when I shoot my tail-less guns, I don't freak out and lose my mind. It is just different.

The other tails aren't helpful at all in my opinion. Such as the offerings on the Enhanced Elites, and the Scorpion series guns. I'd just as soon see those guns come with no tail, or a Legion contoured tail as the monstrosity they come with now.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
How many low light handgun training classes have you taken in the last 5 years colt_SAA?

quote:

Originally posted by colt_saa:

quote:

Originally posted by mbacker_99:

quote:

Originally posted by colt_saa:


For the private person, putting a flashlight on your gun violates one of the basic rules of Firearms Safety. . . "Never point your firearm at something you are not willing to destroy"

Using a firearm as a flashlight FORCES you to constantly point your firearm at things and people that you are NOT willing to destroy.

There is a big difference between using a wml and using your firearm as a flashlight.

Exactly

quote:

Originally posted by mbacker_99:

quote:

Originally posted by colt_saa:

quote:

Originally posted by mbacker_99:

quote:

Originally posted by colt_saa:


For the private person, putting a flashlight on your gun violates one of the basic rules of Firearms Safety. . . "Never point your firearm at something you are not willing to destroy"

Using a firearm as a flashlight FORCES you to constantly point your firearm at things and people that you are NOT willing to destroy.

There is a big difference between using a wml and using your firearm as a flashlight.

Exactly

Perfect, then you do agree with jljones.

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
Did the standard SIG grip tang of the SIG Classic P series not allow you the same speed index draw?

Not Hays but I'll chime in.

It depends. SIG has three beaver tail contours on the P-Series guns. Some are extremely helpful over the no tail guns, others are a hinderance. The contour of the beaver tail on the Legion does allow me to get the gun higher, and is a pretty rock solid reference point. I get a more consistent grip at speed with this set up than I do a gun without it. But, when I shoot my tail-less guns, I don't freak out and lose my mind. It is just different.

The other tails aren't helpful at all in my opinion. Such as the offerings on the Enhanced Elites, and the Scorpion series guns. I'd just as soon see those guns come with no tail, or a Legion contoured tail as the monstrosity they come with now.

I'd still be interested to hear from Hayes on this, but I really do appreciate you chiming in on this issue!

I've held examples of all three of the "tail" variants, although I guess I wouldn't describe the Classic P Series as "tailess" so much as a gun with just a basic old school tang...but let's just chalk that up to semantics.

But I've only drawn and fired SIG Classic P series guns and never found that I couldn't locate, grasp, or draw using just the tang for an index point. So, maybe I'm missing something glaringly obvious and before I get to deep into this discussion I need to understand the technique you and others use to index on guns with tails.

Do you sweep your strong hand forward during the draw stroke so that the web of your hand contacts the tail and then slide it to the upper most portion? Or, during the draw stroke does the web of your strong hand immediately go to the upper most portion of the grip under the tail?

I really do like the way the Legion sits in my hand, but my impression was that my hand was able to grasp the gun just a fraction higher than the Classic P series because of the trigger guard undercut, and not because of the slightly extended tang "tail".

I guess I'm having difficulty visualizing the technique that allows one to have their hand grasp the gun higher with a tail than without one.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
This is a sad example of what pride and ego looks like.

If this is what is currently being taught, there is no shame in asking for a refund. That goes for low light instructor courses too apparently. The sad part is that this tripe is being passed on to unsuspecting students as some sort of fact.

Please get some weapon mounted light training from a competent source folks.

Instructors can never stop learning. When they entrench themselves in false dogma so deeply that they are convinced they can't learn, it speaks volumes to those who will listen.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Hey man.

Let me see if I can put this another way. The Legion tails allows my hands to get higher on the gun. Mainly because it is a bit more comfortable when the flesh compresses around it. I get that high on the tang. I wouldn't say that it is more comfortable, but it is more consistent. My thumb gets really high on it, almost to the point when I first started shooting that way it was painful. With the Legion guns. I have no use for the Elites. I just don't find that beaver tail to be useful because it is too big and I can't get my flesh around it. My Legion is out in OR right now, or I'd post a pic.

Funny story, I saw a gun of Mike Boyd's that Bruce built. It was an enhanced Elite. Bruce did a reduction job on the beaver tail down to where it was usable. When the Legion's came out, it had this exact contour. Who'd have thought it?

Hope this helps!

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
I guess I'm being obtuse because I'm still struggling to visualize how one grasps a tailed gun higher than one with a tang. Comfort is a personal thing and so if it makes the grasp more comfortable for someone I could certainly see a preference for the tail... but as far as positioning the strong hand higher on the grip I'm just drawing blanks on visualizing that. I guess I need to break out my coloring book and crayons and start trying to draw pictures.

If you ever get around to it, I'd be interested to see one of your videos illustrating this concept!

Hey, good to know you guys can reduce the SIG Elite beaver tail profiles, as I've toyed with a couple projects in which the Elite series beaver tail was the deal breaker.