Wish Paul Harrell would use something a little less complicated to shoot than his mix of rack of ribs bag of oranges and layers of tee shirts... just a little too silly for me. Hell I'd just use a good size pumpkin.

But here is his real results from his comparison:

The first auto pistol I bought in the late 60s was a Star 9mm. It was not quite a 1911 clone but close. While at a range, the fellow in the next lane was shooting the same model and caliber Star. We began talking and he showed me the ammo he was using which was 38 Super.

He pointed out that the caliber engraving on the slide said: 9mm/.38. It was on both pistols. This indicated that the pistol was suitable for both calibers he said.

I was was new to shooting having recently turned 21 and had never heard of the Super. I compared the two rounds and saw little difference. Although he gave me a round to try, I did not actually fire it in my pistol as I was hesitant.

The 38S round fit in the mag and functioned with no problem. He fired at least whole box in his pistol with no functional problems.

I asked several people through the years if they were familiar with this model Star and the 9mm/.38 meaning. Few were familiar. Several opined that the designation was for .38 Auto, not the more powerful .38 Super.

Still haven’t found a definitive answer.

But since both rounds loaded and functioned in this Star pistol which was box labeled 9mm it made we wonder
through all these years, why more companies didn’t produce double stack 38 supers.

It would seem a simple barrel swap with a 9mm would work. I have been told that the 9mm mags were too small and the longer Super round won’t fit. Never tried it. Both fit the Star.

Seemed like a good way to give more boost to the 9mm back when it was considered a marginal round before ammo advances.

I’m aware of the IPSC custom guns in 38s and oneb or two commercial models (Paraordinace?) but why didn’t it become main stream?

I suppose the introduction of the .357 Sig makes this mute.

Anyone familiar with the Star pistol and know which 38 it was supposed to shoot?

Anyone have thoughts on why double stack 38S pistols didn’t catch on?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: maxdog,

Paul Harrel is great! Very informative videos. My only complaint is he used factory 38 Super vs Factory 357 SIG.
There's no comparison there. Most Factory 38 Super is downloaded to much lower velocities (sometimes 9mm is faster). In that context, 357 SIG is superior.
The 38 Super is a reloader's cartridge & being so it can attain it's true potential & run virtually neck & neck with the 357 SIG. With the scarcity & price of 357 SIG, the 38 Super is relatively cheaper & more available but is limited in the type of pistols that shoot it.
As for the "meat target", I like it. It is a good representation of what bullets do when impacting meat & bone. Far better than ballistic gel.

Not really why a double stack 38 super never went anywhere.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: .38supersig,

I have an HK P2000 and P2000SK in 357 Sig and carried it for close to a decade. I also have both of them in 9mm. When I was doing a head to head comparison, I determined I was able to shoot the 9mm faster and more accurately than the 357 Sig. I eventually decided that shooting better and the added confidence that came with it outweighed the superior ballistics of the 357 Sig cartridge. I also have a P229ST with a 357 Sig barrel which is a pleasure to shoot but heavy for carrying. The introduction of the 365 has really solidified my choice to comfortably carry 9mm in HST and Golddot flavors.

In the OP question, the 357 Sig is far superior to the 38 super.

quote:

Originally posted by .38supersig:
Not really why a double stack 38 super never went anywhere.

They tried in the early 90's but got killed when the Assault Weapon bill outlawed high cap mags. I always wanted a Craig Fantom 1911 in 38 Super, they were the shit back in the day.

One of my favorite guns is the fabled 1911, and I’ve read for a long time of the love amongst many 1911 folks for the .38 Super (or .38 SUPERB, as I’ve seen it described) cartridge. I’d like to try one out sometime.

I’m a DA/SA SIG fan, too, and really dig the classic P229 in .357 SIG. Ammo cost is a booger-bear, for sure, but what a fun round to shoot! I have a .40 barrel for the P229, also, to keep in slightly more economical practice with the gun.

quote:

Originally posted by .38supersig:
Not really why a double stack 38 super never went anywhere.

As a bit of trivia of possible interest, Messrs. Fairbairn and Sykes (yes, the fighting knife guys) contacted Colt in their Shanghai Municipal Police days before WW II with an inquiry/suggestion about the possibility of producing a 1911 pistol in 38 Super with a staggered column magazine holding 14 to 30 rounds.* Obviously nothing ever came of it, but it’s another demonstration of their advanced thinking at the time.

* Paul R. Child and Nicholas Tyler, No Queensbury Rules: “Fairbairn & Sykes: Fathers of Modern Close Combat (1940-1942)” (Harlow, Essex, England: CQB Publications, 2017).

I'll be the odd man out here. Want a gun that fires a cartridge more powerful than 9mm. Don't want to go to 45 with it's incumbent trade off of lower capacity and/or larger gun size? Want the most available cartridge that fits the bill? Go with .40. There are still more guns available in .40 than .38 Super. And while .40 and 357SIG are interchangeable with only a barrel swap, I think there are more guns on the market supporting .40. And ammo availability is better. So get a .40 where a 357SIG barrel is also available. Carry whatever ammo you can get in either caliber. Personally, I think .40 is going to be the marginally better stopper anyway.

I ran a Strayer Voigt Infinity IMM Open gun chambered in .38 Lapua for USPSA competition for many years.
.38 Lapua is .38 Super rimless, where true .38 Super is a semi-rimmed cartridge. (more reliable functioning in most cases using rimless)
Similar to but not exactly like .38 Super Comp, .38 TJ, and 9x23 Winchester.

In the IMM Open gun with all the barrel ports, chamber pressure is bled off while the projectile is still engaged in the rifling. (reduces/eliminates muzzle flip)
When the pistol was first put together, a maximum load (from reloading manual) of Vihtavuori 3N38 was still several hundred feet per second below what I needed for major power rated velocity.
Power Factor is the bullet weight times the velocity divided by 1000. USPSA rules favor major power over minor power for scoring. As is the case in real life.
Now that USPSA has reduced the power factor requirements for the major power floor, 9mm Major is now common.
9x19 Major is regular 9x19 cases loaded long with heavy doses of slow burning powder for generating copious quantities of gas for compensators and barrel ports.
The load I eventually used in competition, a Zero brand 125 grain JHP, made 1450 feet per second.
The powder charge was 2 grains over the recommended maximum load. (not 0.2 grains over maximum)
My load was/is also a compressed powder charge, the top of the powder is about 3/16" below the case mouth. Care was needed with the auto-index on the progressive reloading press.
Lapua brass was the only brand of brass that would stand up to more than one or two firings due to the "normal" overpressure situation.
But damn, that brass was expensive!
Also, 3N38 was no longer listed as an available powder choice in .38 Lapua the last time I looked.

.357 SIG can make the velocity because of the available case capacity.
In almost all instances using 125 grain projectiles, .357 SIG will outperform .38 Super simply due to case capacity.
It's why the 9 x 25 Dillon cartridge came to be. (10mm case necked down to 9mm, similar to .357 SIG on steroids)
BTW, hot 9x25 Dillon race guns can actually have muzzle dip when being fired, along with an unprecedented concussive blast wave. Plugs and muffs required, just like .38 Lapua.
9x25 Dillon became unpopular due to tinnitus and carpal tunnel complaints among frequent users/competitors, along with reduced numerical cartridge capacity compared to non bottleneck cartridge choices.

DSC00734 by cee_Kamp 32ACP, on Flickr

DSC00737 by cee_Kamp 32ACP, on Flickr

edited for a typo

This message has been edited. Last edited by: cee_Kamp,

quote:

Originally posted by Delta-3:
Most Factory 38 Super is downloaded to much lower velocities

I think that is a common misconception that is often restated on the internet. Some years ago I posted on the ammo sections of the Sig forum and S&W forums my actual chrono test results from factory 38 Super. If you do your own testing, I think your opinion will change. Keep in mind that not all factory Super ammo is +P, such as Fiocchi and Armscor.

My tests were done with a 5" Colt and a 4" Sig. Winchester 125g Silver Tip averaged over 1200 fps even in the shorter P220.

This Sig SAS Model 229 came as a 40.




I did buy a .357 barrel for it but my 239 which is my main .357 carry gun, seems to work better for me.




Of course, my barbecue gun when I want to show off, is my absolutely flawless Dan Wesson “Guardian” in 38 Super.



(PHOTO BORROWED FROM THE WEB)

Trooper Joe

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Trooper Joe,

quote:

I asked several people through the years if they were familiar with this model Star and the 9mm/.38 meaning. Few were familiar. Several opined that the designation was for .38 Auto, not the more powerful .38 Super.

Still haven’t found a definitive answer.

IMO the answer is what those folks told you. Here is a link to some info that agrees with what they said.

http://star-firearms.com/firearms/guns/a/

quote:

Originally posted by tigereye313:
If I had to choose a Sig to carry and fit what you are looking for, I would find a P229 in .357Sig.

^ This. Purchased a P229 in .40 cal. & bought a .357 Sig barrel from a forum member here.

I have been doing .38 super research as well.
I agree with OP - that .38 super and .357 sign implement the same ballistics characteristics, but differently:

.38 super with a lower pressure.

I think .38 Super Dan Wesson Guardian (4.25 non-bull-barrel (better in my view), light weight frame, life-time warranty).

I think only other options to get that 4.25 frame + non-bull-barrel + light-frame + Para-or-other-feed-ramp, in reasonable-price, that magic combination of features --

is going to be purchasing a Commander in light frame , 9mm (eg Ronin Operator, etc) - and hoping to convert it to .38 super.

I suspect the recoil characteristic difference for a .357 sig vs .38 super -- is that .38 super will push bit more to the 'back' of the hand, while .357 will push a bit more -- up.
Although, I cannot claim I compared that.

.38 super is easier to reload, as other pointed out -- because this is a straight wall cartridge.
Powders are probably also a bit different
Also .38 super will fit some .357 mag revolvers (as Paul Ha. showed on the video).

I think 100+ years, .38 super will still be kicking (and hope .357 sig too :-) )

quote:

I think that is a common misconception that is often restated on the internet. Some years ago I posted on the ammo sections of the Sig forum and S&W forums my actual chrono test results from factory 38 Super. If you do your own testing, I think your opinion will change. Keep in mind that not all factory Super ammo is +P, such as Fiocchi and Armscor.

My tests were done with a 5" Colt and a 4" Sig. Winchester 125g Silver Tip averaged over 1200 fps even in the shorter P220.

Exactly my point. 38 Super should run in the 1300 fps+ velocities. 1200 fps can be equaled by 9mm fairly easily.
Agreed on your testing. I also used a 5" Colt Competition Series for my testing. Fiocchi, Armscorp, PPU. None exceeded 1300 fps W/LAB radar unit.
IMO, factory 38 Super ammo is downloaded to this day as a safety margin because those old 38 ACP's still exist.
To get the full potential, one needs to reload or purchase Buffalo Bore type loadings.

I can't speak to the decision about which handgun choice best serves your purpose, as I've never owned either a .38 Super or .357 Sig handgun. I've shot both calibers (Colt 1911 .38 Super and P229 .357 Sig), but that's it. However, I can speak to the terminal ballistics of the .357 Sig in self-defense, which may influence your ultimate choice.

A dear LE friend of mine is an impeccable shooter. He's a former FAM (issued P229 .357 Sig back then) and was a police chief in NE Arkansas at the time of his ambush (2018). He was a working chief wearing body armor and was out taking calls (unicorn chief) because the shift was short-staffed. He went to the trailer occupied by a man known to have mental problems after he saw the man shadowing one of his officer's traffic stops. When he got there, the front door was open, and there was a curtain of mosquito netting covering the door, which obscured his vision. As he got to the door, he saw the silhouette of the man inside and immediately took a 9mm FMJ to the chest. It was stopped by his body armor. The chief immediately drew and put a round to the felon's chest and one to the head from a P229 .357 Sig loaded with Remington Golden Saber Bonded hollowpoints (125 grain). Distance was approximately 10-12 feet. Chief told me the man began to go down with the center mass shot, but dropped like a stone after the shot to the head and never moved or breathed again. As best I can recall, both Golden Sabers stayed in the felon's body and didn't OP.

After 30+ years in LE, I've seen my share of post-shooting pics. Never saw pics like those from a handgun shooting. Felon's head looked sunk in and deflated, like a flat basketball. Made quite an impression on me, and I'm old.

https://www.dps.arkansas.gov/n...suspect-shot-killed/

American P-220 .38 Super for me please.

Sorry, I have no experience with the .357 Sig.

P-220,

That is one beautiful .38 Super! I am VERY jealous...

Wes

quote:

Originally posted by Weshowe:
P-220,

That is one beautiful .38 Super! I am VERY jealous...

Wes

Thank you. It is a favorite for sure.