It can happen, but you almost have to try.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
"Limp wristing" malfunctions are a myth, an old wives tale that just wont die.

I once took anew gun to the range without cleaning. Twice the slide failed to go completely forward after firing. Cleaned after each range trip, 700 plus rounds later, no further issues.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
"Limp wristing" malfunctions are a myth, an old wives tale that just wont die.

I found out many years ago that there was a technique to limp wristing a pistol when my (at the time) 10 year old Son couldn't fire more than 4 or 5 rounds without a malfunction through any of my Glock Pistols.
I could hold the pistols as loose as possible and couldn't make them malfunction.
This is a pretty good Video that explains what's going on.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H_Uqtz2asE4

The widely held belief is that allowing the pistol to move i the hand "limp wristing" somehow reduces slide velocity or that the slide will not travel as far aft, or that it wont travel aft with adequate energy to extract and eject the brass.

Slide velocity and energy exists as a relationship between the slide and the frame to which it is attached, regardless of the shooter, and is a function of mechanical design, cartridge charge and bullet weight, and the recoil spring.

The theory that failure to firmly retain the frame properly in the hand ("limp wristing") implies thatthe velocity of the slide is impaired relative to the frame to such a degree that it lacks the travel and energy to function. Where this might be identifiable (if possible), it's an exceptionally poor mechanical design. Generally speaking , however, a shooter doesnt have the ability to negatively influence the pistol in this way, any more than holding the pistol loosely causes inaccurary (it doesnt).

The cycling is fast enough that its nearly impossible for the shooter to cause such a problem. Likewise. A loosely held firearm is still going to sgoot to the same point of aim (assuming proper sight alignment) regardless of the grip, be ause the bullet has already left the pistol long before movement of the pistol under recoil can affect the shot. What's impaired is the follow up shot.

It is the Browning design; recoil operated. Such a mechanism requires a large difference in momentum between the slide and the frame (the frame's momentum could be adjusted by the user's grip, stance, recoil management, etc). If that difference is too small, then it would be no different than trying to rack the slide by solely gripping the slide, without holding on to the frame.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig209:
Just a random question: are you 100% you're using Glock factory mags and not Korean / Chinese mags?

==================================

Absolutely positive. The mags that I used in the G26 were directly out of the box after purchasing it new.

quote:

Full disclosure: I took it straight out of the box without cleaning or lubing it. Ammo was 115 gr Prvi Partizan JHP. Most issues were failures to feed where the round would jam into the top of the chamber.

Taking the statements in order: 1 - This is OK for a Glock because they fill every nook and cranny with anti-seize. 2 - Have you had a chance to try different ammo? What is the bullet in this load shaped like? If it is conical (aka "truncated cone"), sometimes the straight side of the bullet catches on the chamber lip. 3 - Also possible magazine(s), the number one cause of feeding angle-related stoppages. If you kept track of which magazine you had in the gun at the time of the stoppage, it might only be one of them, or both/all three.

Weak ammo, a new spring, and a limp wrist likely combined for her.

I can't limp wrist a 9mm, but I can get malfunctions with 357 Sig if I fail to keep a firm grip.

Get better ammo, shoot a bunch to loosen up the spring, use correct form. My guess is the problem will go away.

quote:

Originally posted by glow:
If that difference is too small, then it would be no different than trying to rack the slide by solely gripping the slide, without holding on to the frame.

That really isn't true.

If you could grip the slide and rack it without holding onto the frame, and do so with the same energy and impulse imparted by a cartridge firing, then you'd have a basis for comparison.

In that case, however, the example would be pointless.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by glow:
If that difference is too small, then it would be no different than trying to rack the slide by solely gripping the slide, without holding on to the frame.

That really isn't true.

If you could grip the slide and rack it without holding onto the frame, and do so with the same energy and impulse imparted by a cartridge firing, then you'd have a basis for comparison.

In that case, however, the example would be pointless.

The comparison would be absolutely valid, simply because it would be emulating a lack of force from the user.

As a result, limp wristing can and will affect the operation of a recoil operated pistol.

Whether the user is willing to admit as much, is beyond the scope of diagnosis.

The velocity imparted to the slide by virtue of the cartridge firing is enough that were the shooter not holding the weapon at all, the slide would still cycle. This is nothing akin to simply pulling back on the slide with the frame unsupported.

In the case of attempting to move the slide with the frame unsupported, the entire weapon will move and the slide will not move relative to the frame. In the case of a fired shot, the slide will move regardless of whether the frame is supported, properly or otherwise; it will move and cylcle whether "limp wristed" or not.

The exception may be a very low powered load, but once we delve into ammunition issues, we're into another discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
The velocity imparted to the slide by virtue of the cartridge firing is enough that were the shooter not holding the weapon at all, the slide would still cycle. This is nothing akin to simply pulling back on the slide with the frame unsupported.

In the case of attempting to move the slide with the frame unsupported, the entire weapon will move and the slide will not move relative to the frame. In the case of a fired shot, the slide will move regardless of whether the frame is supported, properly or otherwise; it will move and cylcle whether "limp wristed" or not.

The exception may be a very low powered load, but once we delve into ammunition issues, we're into another discussion.

Nothing in the world is free. The slide is held against the frame by one or more springs. Unsurprisingly, without a strong force to counter the slide's action, the frame will just move along with the slide. This is the path of least resistance for the force to go along.

The recoil force alone will not cycle the slide without something holding against the frame with sufficient force to counter the momentum of the slide.

As such, limp wristing can negatively affect the action of a recoil-operated pistol.

Cleaning a new firearm, to me, is a safety issue. No manufacturing process is perfect. Taking it apart and cleaning it can identify defects. Another tip I picked up on SigForum is to rack the slide 100 times before you take it to the range the first time.

quote:

Originally posted by glow:


Nothing in the world is free. The slide is held against the frame by one or more springs. Unsurprisingly, without a strong force to counter the slide's action, the frame will just move along with the slide. This is the path of least resistance for the force to go along.

The recoil force alone will not cycle the slide without something holding against the frame with sufficient force to counter the momentum of the slide.

As such, limp wristing can negatively affect the action of a recoil-operated pistol.

It's not a matter of being "free." Velocity isn't free, nor is the energy imparted to the slide. It's provided by the firing of the cartridge.

The slide is held against the frame by rails. It's resisted by a recoil spring. Acting against that spring (and not the rails) is the force imparted by the firing of the cartridge. It's newtonian. If we are to believe that the slide lacks the energy to cycle, the bullet traveling in the opposite direction lacks the energy to fire. Velocity isn't significantly or negatively impacted by a poor grip; to make that assumption would be ridiculous. One simply can't grip it poorly enough to detract from the bullet velocity. An equal and opposite reaction to the discharge of the bullet from the barrel takes place, transferred to the slide and measured as the velocity of the slide when it's mass it taken into account.

Just as a poor grip won't stop that bullet, it wont' stop that slide, either.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by glow:


Nothing in the world is free. The slide is held against the frame by one or more springs. Unsurprisingly, without a strong force to counter the slide's action, the frame will just move along with the slide. This is the path of least resistance for the force to go along.

The recoil force alone will not cycle the slide without something holding against the frame with sufficient force to counter the momentum of the slide.

As such, limp wristing can negatively affect the action of a recoil-operated pistol.

It's not a matter of being "free." Velocity isn't free, nor is the energy imparted to the slide. It's provided by the firing of the cartridge.

The slide is held against the frame by rails. It's resisted by a recoil spring. Acting against that spring (and not the rails) is the force imparted by the firing of the cartridge. It's newtonian. If we are to believe that the slide lacks the energy to cycle, the bullet traveling in the opposite direction lacks the energy to fire. Velocity isn't significantly or negatively impacted by a poor grip; to make that assumption would be ridiculous. One simply can't grip it poorly enough to detract from the bullet velocity. An equal and opposite reaction to the discharge of the bullet from the barrel takes place, transferred to the slide and measured as the velocity of the slide when it's mass it taken into account.

Just as a poor grip won't stop that bullet, it wont' stop that slide, either.

Exactly, nothing is free. So when a force is applied to the slide, it is immediately countered by the mass of the slide and the force of the recoil spring. That recoil spring applies force against both the slide and the frame, in opposing directions. So that initial force will ultimately try to move the frame. If the frame has no force applied to it from an opposing direction, the frame will move with the slide. The frame will not hold itself in place for free. The user (or a vise) must apply that force.

Without sufficient force to counter the frame's tendency to move along with the slide, operations dependent on moving that slide independently of the frame will encounter difficulty.

As such, a recoil operated pistol's operation is dependent on recoil being opposed. Limp wristing said pistol can cause that pistol to malfunction.

Cleaned and lubed the G26 today and tried some different ammo (MagTech) and it was flawless through 100 rounds all fired by my girlfriend. It's a good thing that it functioned well for her, because it is now hers as she is now a first time gun owner. She's already trying to figure out ways to make it pretty and is eager to learn more about maintenance and function.

Also put 100 flawless rounds through my new Glock 43. Not a bad way to spend my birthday.

It's a Glock. Which is one helluva good gun. Making it pretty however...........well.......ummmm
.....
I guess you could get a super nice holster for it and it will look much better....covered by the holster.

After you have a few hundred rounds through it especially some hotter stuff you should revisit the original ammo to see if it's ammo sensitive or just needed a little break in.

quote:

Originally posted by Spiff_P239:
She's already trying to figure out ways to make it pretty.

http://www.rockyourglock.com/custom/HOG-17007.htm

Nobody asked for a vote, but I do want to support what glow has been saying as he is clearly correct. While the mass of the frame and it's tendency to stay at rest provides some resistance to the slide movement, there is clearly more resistance provided by the proper grip of the hand. If the mass of the frame is low enough, and the grip poor enough, then a malfunction can occur.

There is a balancing act taking place, and pistol design must take into account the mass of the slide (and frame), the power of the cartridge, spring strength, etc. I believe this is the reason that smaller pistols with lighter slides must use stronger springs.

I am not a physicist, but I have no doubt that slide velocity relative to the frame will decrease when gripped weakly or not at all.

Lubrication is your friend.

I believe the myth. I took my 73 yo father to the range. Let him shoot my Colt Targetsman...he had all sorts of ftf/fte problems. I then slow fired one mag, and emptied the next as fast as it would fire. No problems. Gave it back to dad, made sure he wasn't touching/rubbing the slide, and sure enough...3 or more failures per mag. Gave him my 617.... Problem solved.

Every force, equal & opposite force. If you allow a .22 pistol to "recoil" (lift) from limpwristing , you are robbing energy from somewhere.