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Originally posted by jimmy123x:

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Originally posted by Jim Watson:
Bear in mind that FN went to cast frames for greater strength when they brought out the HP in .40.

While MIM is the current ersatz bogeyman, I remember when cast was uncultured and stamped was just plain awful. Got a lot of that stuff now... but not in a GOOD 1911.

The cast frames have thicker metal in areas to beef them up and that is what makes them stronger in regards to the BHP. They are not stronger simply because they are cast instead of forged.

I had a MIM slide stop sheer off at 200 rounds in a new 1911 and don't trust the MIM stuff personally. But generally things are cast and MIM to save money over forged. The quality and consistency of castings has also gotten better over time as well though.

Generally that seems to be the case. Cast frames and MIM parts to reduce cost. I believe that is what DW was doing with the introduction of the 2004 stainless Patriot when the original had a forged frame of which they boosted. They kept the "Patriot Proof" accuracy claim, but skimped on some of the parts, like a plastic MSH. That alone tells me the gun is suspect IMO.

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Originally posted by SIGWolf:

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One thing that stands out with a good investment casting is that they are generally very stable dimensionally before and after machining and over time. A forging tends not to be generally.

From a strictly novice point of view, how are steel billets made? I assume molten metal is poured into a mold of some sort. With the casing molten metal is poured into a mold. So, how are the two "pourings" different. You mention one having a grain and the other not.

It seems one is poured into a complex shape and the other into a simple shape, but both are poured into a mold? I see that the billet is poured and rolled perhaps over and over.

"A billet is a length of metal that has a round or square cross-section, with an area less than 36 in2 (230 cm2). Billets are created directly via continuous casting or extrusion or indirectly via hot rolling an ingot or bloom. ... In copper production, a billet is a 30' long, about 8" diameter, of pure copper."

ditto steel,

run into a shape, (cold rolled)

then cut in sections by size required

Hot-forged & cold-worked steels have an internal grain structure which improves their strength over machined-from-billet and cast parts by virtue of having their grain compressed according to the final shape of the part. For instance, look at the cross-section of a rolled thread versus a cut thread as an example.


Machined from bar or billet will have the inherent grain structure removed from a linear bar to impart the shape, thus no improvement of grain in the junctures of shape transition. This forging cross-section illustrates the improved grain internally.



I did tool & die work in a forging house for many years & particular attention is always paid to tooling stucture & transitions for an improved forging.

I don't have the experience to comment on how investment casting compares, but it would be hard for me to envision any casting having better grain structure than a forging.

Whether or not this is meaningful in a pistol frame I wouldn't speculate. Suffice it to say however, if given a choice, I'll take a forging.

I know this seems like beating a dead horse and that, in many people’s estimation, it doesn’t matter. Cast frames are plenty good enough.

However, it is also the case that many 1911 manufacturers reserve cast frames for their less expensive, lower end models and forged for their more expensive flagship models.

It is also the case that some manufacturers move to cast frames to reduce cost. This seems to be the same for MIM parts. Forged frames and machined parts seem to be more expensive and are viewed even by the manufacturers as of higher quality it seems.

You will not see a manufacturer boosting or even openly advertising they use cast frames or forged frames from overseas. You will find them boosting if the frames are forged and if they do not use any MIM parts.

If you see in the specs of a 1911 that the “Frame Material” is simply listed as “Stainless” for example, you can almost certainly count on the frames being cast frames. If they are forged, it will say so.

If nothing else, the industry seems to hold the view that forged and machined is better and to perpetuate that by their advertising AND their manufacturing process. I doubt you will find someone boosting about MIM and cast and arguing they are the best, most desirable and superior parts and processes.

If you look at all the custom makers like Wilson Combat, Nighthawk, Les Baer, Ed Brown and their parts along with parts makers like EGW and I expect GGI, you will not find them selling or using MIM parts of using cast frames. If any of them do, I’d be interested to hear.

Cast and MIM is cheaper and it seems that if a premium manufacturer starts to move in that direction, it is because they are starting to cut corners and sell less expensive 1911s. And you will not find them advertising the fact.

That is not to say that lower priced 1911s do not have their place and do not function perfectly well in the arena for which they are made. Not everyone can afford a $3K+ gun or even a 1.6K gun. Given what they are used for and the amount of use they get, I’m sure there is little or no difference in durability or even reliability between cast/MIM and forged/machined. But that doesn’t seem to mean there is no difference.

There are makers out there that put together quality forged/machined guns in the mid-range tier, like the Dan Wesson Heritage for example.

Caspian and Pine Tree, AFAIK, made/still make excellent cast frames that are widely used by many OEMs.

I have no problem with a high-quality cast frame. I think forged and machined barstock is a better option for a slide, but Ruger did use (at least for some years) cast barrels and slides in their indestructible P series pistols.

My Dan Wesson Classic Bobtail vintage 2007 has a cast frame and forged slide. It's 10mm. I don't expect it to give out before I do frankly.

You mention slides. To add to what I said earlier. forged slides are also used boosted of. For those makers who use cast frames, they will uniformly tell you the slide it forged if it is.

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Originally posted by SIGWolf:
If you look at all the custom makers like Wilson Combat, Nighthawk, Les Baer, Ed Brown and their parts along with parts makers like EGW and I expect GGI, you will not find them selling or using MIM parts of using cast frames. If any of them do, I’d be interested to hear.

I wonder if the use of different production methods is related to the scale of the companies. Would it even be practical for small-scale producers to invest in casting processes or making MIM dies?

Small scale producers are buying frames and slides from somebody. Just like a lot of AR builders buy their lowers etc.